4 ms·

Well, that's sort of like saying we should use lines of code as a metric, because what else to we have to go on. The opinions of assorted developers? There ne

by jbooth 16y ago

Well, that's sort of like saying we should use lines of code as a metric, because what else to we have to go on. The opinions of assorted developers? There needs to be some attempt at normalization between teachers and school districts, of course. But there's room for qualitative measures instead of quantitative ones. Especially when the tests seem (unintentionally) designed to punish teachers for teaching poor/minority/ESL students.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
We have much better metrics for developers than lines of code - bug fixes/feature requests weighted by importance, P&L, etc. Do you have a better metric for teachers than standardized tests? Especially when the tests seem (unintentionally) designed to punish teachers for teaching poor/minority/ESL students. This is utterly false if we reward teachers based on deltas rather than absolute values, that is we compare actual performance to statistically predicted performance and reward/penalize teachers when actual performance exceeds predicted performance.
- abstractbill 16y ago
  This is utterly false if we reward teachers based on deltas rather than absolute values... That's a big if. From what I've seen, this is practically never done - absolute values are the norm.
- kingkilr 16y ago
  > bug fixes/feature requests weighted by importance Isn't there a DailyWTF about a company that did just that and found that the testing people conspired with the developers to invent bugs, locate them, and then collect bonuses for fixing them.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    Preventing conspiracies like this is exactly why teachers should be evaluated by standardized tests designed by an independent agency.
    - jbooth 16y ago
      You already said you think teachers are overpaid and underworked and your goal is to make things harder for them. Why should they want to work under a system like that? What independent agency would you want devising metrics to figure out how good you are at your job while knowing nothing about the specific challenges you deal with?
      - yummyfajitas 16y ago
        I believe teachers currently are comped at above-market rates. I would bring them down to market rates. They would work under that system for the same reason most other professionals work at market rates - it's the best they can get. The independent agency which currently devises metrics to figure out how good I do my job is the stock market. My bonus = % of profits. When I was a professor, I favored (and suggested to the department) that some higher authority should devise midterm and final exams. It would a) allow us to measure teacher performance, as opposed to student opinion [1] and b) allow comparison of student performance across classes. [1] To get good student evaluations, all you need is easy tests + jokes + good looks.
        jbooth 16y ago
        You've got market and non-market all mixed up. Public education isn't a market good, it's a public good. Toilet paper and oatmeal are market goods. The labor market for teaching is in fact a free market. Any given municipality can pay whatever they want to pay, and get the talent they're paying for accordingly. The fact that teachers are getting laid off in something like 80% of municipalities the last few years means you don't even have to scrape the bottom of the barrel. Agree on the statements about professors. All the same. If you were working on something more qualitative as part of a team, and not a lone trader, we both know there's no quantitative way to assess your work. Lines of code is a joke and other metrics invariably bring in subjective measures. EDIT to add: If you're pro-free market, shouldn't it be up to municipalities to choose which teachers they want to keep or fire as they see fit, without some bureaucrat telling them that according to some BS test scores they have to do such and such?

by jbooth 16y ago

yummyfajitas 16y ago

We have much better metrics for developers than lines of code - bug fixes/feature requests weighted by importance, P&L, etc. Do you have a better metric for teachers than standardized tests? Especially when the tests seem (unintentionally) designed to punish teachers for teaching poor/minority/ESL students. This is utterly false if we reward teachers based on deltas rather than absolute values, that is we compare actual performance to statistically predicted performance and reward/penalize teachers when actual performance exceeds predicted performance.

abstractbill 16y ago
This is utterly false if we reward teachers based on deltas rather than absolute values... That's a big if. From what I've seen, this is practically never done - absolute values are the norm.
kingkilr 16y ago
> bug fixes/feature requests weighted by importance Isn't there a DailyWTF about a company that did just that and found that the testing people conspired with the developers to invent bugs, locate them, and then collect bonuses for fixing them.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  Preventing conspiracies like this is exactly why teachers should be evaluated by standardized tests designed by an independent agency.
  - jbooth 16y ago
    You already said you think teachers are overpaid and underworked and your goal is to make things harder for them. Why should they want to work under a system like that? What independent agency would you want devising metrics to figure out how good you are at your job while knowing nothing about the specific challenges you deal with?
    - yummyfajitas 16y ago
      I believe teachers currently are comped at above-market rates. I would bring them down to market rates. They would work under that system for the same reason most other professionals work at market rates - it's the best they can get. The independent agency which currently devises metrics to figure out how good I do my job is the stock market. My bonus = % of profits. When I was a professor, I favored (and suggested to the department) that some higher authority should devise midterm and final exams. It would a) allow us to measure teacher performance, as opposed to student opinion [1] and b) allow comparison of student performance across classes. [1] To get good student evaluations, all you need is easy tests + jokes + good looks.
      - jbooth 16y ago
        You've got market and non-market all mixed up. Public education isn't a market good, it's a public good. Toilet paper and oatmeal are market goods. The labor market for teaching is in fact a free market. Any given municipality can pay whatever they want to pay, and get the talent they're paying for accordingly. The fact that teachers are getting laid off in something like 80% of municipalities the last few years means you don't even have to scrape the bottom of the barrel. Agree on the statements about professors. All the same. If you were working on something more qualitative as part of a team, and not a lone trader, we both know there's no quantitative way to assess your work. Lines of code is a joke and other metrics invariably bring in subjective measures. EDIT to add: If you're pro-free market, shouldn't it be up to municipalities to choose which teachers they want to keep or fire as they see fit, without some bureaucrat telling them that according to some BS test scores they have to do such and such?