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indeed, "People think it was just the Nazis that operated concentration camps. Britain used them in South Africa, Ireland, Palestine, Malaya & Kenya." https://

by tudorw 9y ago

indeed, "People think it was just the Nazis that operated concentration camps. Britain used them in South Africa, Ireland, Palestine, Malaya & Kenya." https://twitter.com/crimesofbrits https://twitter.com/crimesofbrits

joering2 9y ago
Whats interesting in recent years it came up that children in Germany were learning about "Polish concentration camps", highly alluding that those places had more to do with polish people than with Germans (that they were of polish evil invention and ran by polish people). There is also a long "tradition" in Germany to detach Germans from what they did in past. For example, average Dutch will not tell you "Germans start World War 2", he/she will tell you "Nazis Started World War 2". This goes very far. Before that, it wasn't Germans who were slaughtering Europeans, it was Teutonic Order. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order
- vintageseltzer 9y ago
  > There is also a long "tradition" in Germany to detach Germans from what they did in past. For example, average Dutch will not tell you "Germans start World War 2", he/she will tell you "Nazis Started World War 2". This goes very far. Before that, it wasn't Germans who were slaughtering Europeans, it was Teutonic Order. That seems reasonable. A country's government and its population or cultural identity are different. Especially as time goes on.
  - tomohawk 9y ago
    Germany was arguably the most educated, enlightened, and cultured country of that time. Look at all those Nobel winners. They chose to take on the garments of Nazism. It was Germany that killed all of those Jews, Gypsies, handicapped, Christians, and anyone else who opposed them. Trying to say "that was just this crazy political party" just doesn't cut it.
    - jdietrich 9y ago
      It's a fine line. The important thing is to emphasise that there was nothing unique about Germany or the Nazi party. What happened there could happen anywhere. If you emphasise the Germanness of the Holocaust, you risk casting it as a uniquely German phenomenon. The German people didn't suddenly become evil in 1931, nor did they suddenly become good in 1946. They were perfectly ordinary people who were complicit or active in perpetrating awful atrocities. It happened there and it could happen here. There are people in your life who would, in the wrong circumstances, be perfectly capable of kicking people into cattle cars or gas chambers. They're not psychopaths or monsters, they're just people who do what they're told. That's the awful reality; blaming some aspect of the German character is an easy get-out from confronting that awfulness.
      - joering2 9y ago
        Well written, +1 One could even argue that it did indeed happened "here". Take a look at recent Iraq invasion under President Bush. Least at least 8 years, at cost of 150-650 thousands (!!) of lives lost, about 110,000 civilians included... and what happened other than few street riots and march under White House? Nothing! Absolutely nothing! Average American family continues to live average american life and even as we still don't know why this war was started, life goes on :( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War
      - JPLeRouzic 9y ago
        I am not German, but thanks for writing that. Demonizing people is unfortunately the norm, making a well balanced judgment is very rare. Many, many thanks for your writings here.
      - coldtea 9y ago
        >The German people didn't suddenly become evil in 1931, nor did they suddenly become good in 1946. No, they were part of an "superior race" culture both before 1931 and after 1946. (Not to mention their role in WWI as well).
        9y ago
  - greedo 9y ago
    Your comment is a perfect example of what the parent was commenting on. The notion that a few select Germans misled the rest of Germany and brought upon the Holocaust is unfounded. WW2 and the Holocaust began because of a confluence between the German government, it's citizens, and its culture.
    - amigoingtodie 9y ago
      I could be misinterpreting your comment. Are you saying the the citizenry in Germany were complicit in the facilitation of the Holocaust?
      - coldtea 9y ago
        Of course they were. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard https://www.timeshighereducation.com/books/up-in-smoke-goes-the-lie-that-the-holocaust-was-a-big-secret/203103.article https://www.timeshighereducation.com/books/up-in-smoke-goes-... http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/rape-murder-and-genocide-nazi-war-crimes-as-described-by-german-soldiers-a-755385-5.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/rape-murder-and-... One of the heaviest anti-semitic places in Europe, then and now. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-16678772 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-16678772 http://forward.com/news/world/188764/german-hate-mail-comes-from-surprisingly-well-educ/ http://forward.com/news/world/188764/german-hate-mail-comes-...
        amigoingtodie 9y ago
        I read through each of those articles. It indicates a systematic desensitization that occured over time. Additionally, the article that purports current-day Germany as the heaviest anti-semetic place in Europe, with a few anecdotes, mentions Berlin's thriving Jewish population - one of the few places in the world with such an increase. I do see many parallels to the current behaviors in the US, unfortunately.
        coldtea 9y ago
  - coldtea 9y ago
    You'd be surprised. There are such things as continuity of state, and also a continuity of culture. Especially if post-WWII it never sat well with the locals that they lost the war, or that they were in the wrong. Token gestures like making "mein kampf" illegal post-facto are a dime a dozen. Especially since most of the post-WWII political and business establishment, in the highest positions, were fervent nazi party members and high ranking officials before 1945: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/from-dictatorship-to-democracy-the-role-ex-nazis-played-in-early-west-germany-a-810207.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/from-dictatorshi...
- middus 9y ago
  How do the Dutch come into play here? I am confused.
- greedo 9y ago
  Daniel Goldhagen does a good job of illustrating the involvement of everyday Germans in the Holocaust in his book "Hitler's Willing Executioners."[0] This book has received a lot of criticism from historians but it contains a lot of fascinating information. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Willing_Executioners https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Willing_Executioner...
- wozer 9y ago
  > Whats interesting in recent years it came up that children in Germany were learning about "Polish concentration camps", highly alluding that those places had more to do with polish people than with Germans (that they were of polish evil invention and ran by polish people). Source? I really don't think anything like this is taught in German schools.
  - joering2 9y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Polish_death_camp%22_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Polish_death_camp%22_contro...
    - wozer 9y ago
      Well, it's bad that the term has been used in the media. Probably more carelessness than evil intent, but you never now. However, I have never heard it used in schools. German children will learn in school that these camps were German.
- darklajid 9y ago
  When I was in school, concentration camps were always described as German (no references to Polish or anything). My kids aren't old enough to go to school, but I doubt that this changed tbh. Yes, Nazis are mentioned when that time is discussed, but never in my experience to avoid a connection between this country and the deeds done. German national pride, patriotism, is very very low (I personally don't feel any attachment to this country apart from the fact that I know some places and speak the language). > "For example, average Dutch will not tell you" How are the Dutch involved now? Is that a weird "I know 'German' is 'Deutsch' in German" mistake? Or are you randomly talking about people from the Netherlands at that point?

by tudorw 9y ago

joering2 9y ago

Whats interesting in recent years it came up that children in Germany were learning about "Polish concentration camps", highly alluding that those places had more to do with polish people than with Germans (that they were of polish evil invention and ran by polish people). There is also a long "tradition" in Germany to detach Germans from what they did in past. For example, average Dutch will not tell you "Germans start World War 2", he/she will tell you "Nazis Started World War 2". This goes very far. Before that, it wasn't Germans who were slaughtering Europeans, it was Teutonic Order. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order

vintageseltzer 9y ago
> There is also a long "tradition" in Germany to detach Germans from what they did in past. For example, average Dutch will not tell you "Germans start World War 2", he/she will tell you "Nazis Started World War 2". This goes very far. Before that, it wasn't Germans who were slaughtering Europeans, it was Teutonic Order. That seems reasonable. A country's government and its population or cultural identity are different. Especially as time goes on.
- tomohawk 9y ago
  Germany was arguably the most educated, enlightened, and cultured country of that time. Look at all those Nobel winners. They chose to take on the garments of Nazism. It was Germany that killed all of those Jews, Gypsies, handicapped, Christians, and anyone else who opposed them. Trying to say "that was just this crazy political party" just doesn't cut it.
  - jdietrich 9y ago
    It's a fine line. The important thing is to emphasise that there was nothing unique about Germany or the Nazi party. What happened there could happen anywhere. If you emphasise the Germanness of the Holocaust, you risk casting it as a uniquely German phenomenon. The German people didn't suddenly become evil in 1931, nor did they suddenly become good in 1946. They were perfectly ordinary people who were complicit or active in perpetrating awful atrocities. It happened there and it could happen here. There are people in your life who would, in the wrong circumstances, be perfectly capable of kicking people into cattle cars or gas chambers. They're not psychopaths or monsters, they're just people who do what they're told. That's the awful reality; blaming some aspect of the German character is an easy get-out from confronting that awfulness.
    - joering2 9y ago
      Well written, +1 One could even argue that it did indeed happened "here". Take a look at recent Iraq invasion under President Bush. Least at least 8 years, at cost of 150-650 thousands (!!) of lives lost, about 110,000 civilians included... and what happened other than few street riots and march under White House? Nothing! Absolutely nothing! Average American family continues to live average american life and even as we still don't know why this war was started, life goes on :( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War
    - JPLeRouzic 9y ago
      I am not German, but thanks for writing that. Demonizing people is unfortunately the norm, making a well balanced judgment is very rare. Many, many thanks for your writings here.
    - coldtea 9y ago
      >The German people didn't suddenly become evil in 1931, nor did they suddenly become good in 1946. No, they were part of an "superior race" culture both before 1931 and after 1946. (Not to mention their role in WWI as well).
      - 9y ago
- greedo 9y ago
  Your comment is a perfect example of what the parent was commenting on. The notion that a few select Germans misled the rest of Germany and brought upon the Holocaust is unfounded. WW2 and the Holocaust began because of a confluence between the German government, it's citizens, and its culture.
  - amigoingtodie 9y ago
    I could be misinterpreting your comment. Are you saying the the citizenry in Germany were complicit in the facilitation of the Holocaust?
    - coldtea 9y ago
      Of course they were. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard https://www.timeshighereducation.com/books/up-in-smoke-goes-the-lie-that-the-holocaust-was-a-big-secret/203103.article https://www.timeshighereducation.com/books/up-in-smoke-goes-... http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/rape-murder-and-genocide-nazi-war-crimes-as-described-by-german-soldiers-a-755385-5.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/rape-murder-and-... One of the heaviest anti-semitic places in Europe, then and now. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-16678772 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-16678772 http://forward.com/news/world/188764/german-hate-mail-comes-from-surprisingly-well-educ/ http://forward.com/news/world/188764/german-hate-mail-comes-...
      - amigoingtodie 9y ago
        I read through each of those articles. It indicates a systematic desensitization that occured over time. Additionally, the article that purports current-day Germany as the heaviest anti-semetic place in Europe, with a few anecdotes, mentions Berlin's thriving Jewish population - one of the few places in the world with such an increase. I do see many parallels to the current behaviors in the US, unfortunately.
        coldtea 9y ago
- coldtea 9y ago
  You'd be surprised. There are such things as continuity of state, and also a continuity of culture. Especially if post-WWII it never sat well with the locals that they lost the war, or that they were in the wrong. Token gestures like making "mein kampf" illegal post-facto are a dime a dozen. Especially since most of the post-WWII political and business establishment, in the highest positions, were fervent nazi party members and high ranking officials before 1945: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/from-dictatorship-to-democracy-the-role-ex-nazis-played-in-early-west-germany-a-810207.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/from-dictatorshi...
middus 9y ago
How do the Dutch come into play here? I am confused.
greedo 9y ago
Daniel Goldhagen does a good job of illustrating the involvement of everyday Germans in the Holocaust in his book "Hitler's Willing Executioners."[0] This book has received a lot of criticism from historians but it contains a lot of fascinating information. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Willing_Executioners https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Willing_Executioner...
wozer 9y ago
> Whats interesting in recent years it came up that children in Germany were learning about "Polish concentration camps", highly alluding that those places had more to do with polish people than with Germans (that they were of polish evil invention and ran by polish people). Source? I really don't think anything like this is taught in German schools.
- joering2 9y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Polish_death_camp%22_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Polish_death_camp%22_contro...
  - wozer 9y ago
    Well, it's bad that the term has been used in the media. Probably more carelessness than evil intent, but you never now. However, I have never heard it used in schools. German children will learn in school that these camps were German.
darklajid 9y ago
When I was in school, concentration camps were always described as German (no references to Polish or anything). My kids aren't old enough to go to school, but I doubt that this changed tbh. Yes, Nazis are mentioned when that time is discussed, but never in my experience to avoid a connection between this country and the deeds done. German national pride, patriotism, is very very low (I personally don't feel any attachment to this country apart from the fact that I know some places and speak the language). > "For example, average Dutch will not tell you" How are the Dutch involved now? Is that a weird "I know 'German' is 'Deutsch' in German" mistake? Or are you randomly talking about people from the Netherlands at that point?