6 ms·

Not sure why you're being downvoted (+1 from me) but this is essentially the basis of the Netflix documentary 13th [1]. The thesis is that slavery was replaced

by cletus 9y ago

Not sure why you're being downvoted (+1 from me) but this is essentially the basis of the Netflix documentary 13th [1]. The thesis is that slavery was replaced by excessive incarceration of African Americans, which were then used as cheap or free labour... much like slaves were. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film)

macrael 9y ago
And before that it was the thesis of the book The New Jim Crow. Arguing that the modern incarceration system came into being as a system of control to replace the Jim Crow laws that arose as a system of control to replace slavery. The most 'aha' connection there was that a shocking percentage of black men have felony convictions of some sort or another, and we deny felons the right to vote in most states. Jim Crow indeed.
- KGIII 9y ago
  > we deny felons the right to vote in most states. Only while incarcerated. http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/felon-voting-rights.aspx http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/felon-v...
  - Clubber 9y ago
    Depends on the state. I'm on one of the states in the "Restoration by Governor's Action or Court Action" category, and I can tell you thought it is possible, voting rates are rarely, if ever reinstated in my state.
    - KGIII 9y ago
      Oh, I'm familiar with that. It's just that most don't take away the right to vote permanently. They take it away until you're done serving your sentence and then it is automatically restored. (See the link.) A couple of States even allow inmates to vote while incarcerated. In my now-home State, inmates are encouraged to vote and sometimes politicians will even go campaign inside the prison. That's pretty rare, but has happened. So, it's a temporary loss in most cases. Notably, Maine allows inmates to vote and Maine is overwhelmingly white. Vermont is the same way. In my quest for more information, I found some commentary about that aspect.
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        > Notably, Maine allows inmates to vote and Maine is overwhelmingly white. Vermont is the same way. Being overwhelmingly white is probably part of the reason; if you don't have a visible black underclass to subjugate, you don't take steps to subjugate them. In discussing the thesis of felon disenfranchisement as part of “the New Jim Crow”, pointing out that states without a notable visible black population don't engage in disenfranchisement is in line with that thesis.
  - macrael 9y ago
    I'm curious what "automatic restoration" means. I recall from The New Jim Crow that the process is onerous in many states, involving paperwork and bureaucracy that many don't end up taking the time to do. But maybe that's just in the nine non-automatic states. Ah, and in the paragraph underneath that table: Even in states where ex-offenders automatically regain the right to vote upon completion of their sentence, the process of re-registering to vote often is difficult. One reason is the complexity of the laws and processes surrounding disenfranchisement. In some cases, it is difficult to determine whose rights can be restored. This can vary in some states according to the date of the crime, the conviction, or the release from prison, or the nature of the crime. The complex restoration process also can be daunting. It often involves lengthy paperwork, burdensome documentation, and the involvement and coordination of several state agencies This, again, is why Jim Crow is an apt comparison. It's a web of rules that all together add up to a system of control.
TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
It's being downvoted because it's pushing a false narrative that it's only black people that are being incarcerated, and they're being incarcerated explicitly for cheap labor. There are major issues with regards to race in America, but real life is more nuanced than "it's happening because racism."
- cavanasm 9y ago
  Would "racism is a statistically significant contributing factor" be more palatable for you than "it's happening because racism"?
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    Yes, actually. A nuanced discussion on a nuanced issue is much preferable to ideological squabbles.
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > It's being downvoted because it's pushing a false narrative that it's only black people that are being incarcerated, Nobody is saying "only" black people are being incarcerated. They're saying that incarceration is used as a tool to perpetuate many of the same outcomes as slavery. Which is trivially verifiable, if you look at the respective incarceration rates by race. > they're being incarcerated explicitly for cheap labor Virtually all prisoners are required to work for what amounts to as little as $.10/hour. $1/hour is considered an incredibly good wage for a prison job. Prisoners are, by design, excluded from minimum wage laws. This is not limited to private prisons; it includes inmates at state-run and federal prisons too. In California, about a third of the people fighting the recent and ongoing wildfires are prisoners, generally making about $1/hour or less. The maximum they can make is $2.56. Again, this burden largely falls on black and other non-white people, because they're incarcerated at much higher rates and for much longer sentences for the same crimes.
  - BearGoesChirp 9y ago
    >if you look at the respective incarceration rates by race. Yet the theory breaks down once you look at a breakdown of race, gender, and SES.
aaron-lebo 9y ago
There's some truth to it but the original post is way too simplistic. They are suggesting that prison, even today, is equivalent to slavery. There is injustice within the modern prison system, but prison is not slavery, at least in the right context it is a place for punishment and rehabilitation. Sure prisons make a profit off their prisoners, but those profits are nothing like those obtained by slavery, it's an extreme exaggeration and the problem with the justice system isn't just race, if someone wants to suggest that. removal of slavery as a punishment What is actually being proposed here? To say we "never quit doing slavery" is to ignore the massive improvements and lives dedicated to get rid of actual, you know, slavery.
- mikeash 9y ago
  The Constitution explicitly permits slavery for criminals, and many prisons take advantage of this. How is that simplistic?
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    It is simplistic exactly because that is not equivalent to slavery circa 1860 which is what is suggested through "we never quit doing slavery".
    - swasheck 9y ago
      So the post is missing nuance in favor of a "big picture" opinion. I still view it as a thoughtful take on the situation. Then again, I generally only downvote trolls and distractions, not thoughtful posts with which I disagree.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      Slavery has changed but it hasn't ended. The post discusses the changes, so again, what's simplistic?
dominotw 9y ago
> which were then used as cheap or free labour... much like slaves were. Are prisons really profitable though? Do they produce anything of real value from this free labor ?
- gumby 9y ago
  Prisons are hugely profitable (see the video elsewhere of the Louisiana sheriff) and the prison industrial complex throws off so much cash that its lobbying effort is one of the largest in California (and is why we still have, for example, the three strikes law)
  - dominotw 9y ago
    sorry I was referring to GP's comment about cheap labor, not the profitability of prison itself. Are private companies generating significant profit off of cheap prison labor ? Am I buying something from a walmart shelve made from prison labor ?
    - gumby 9y ago
      > Am I buying something from a walmart shelve made from prison labor ? Yep. A quick google search with that very question finds lots of entries, many of course with an axe to grind. The Economist is rather dispassionate on the subject though: https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21718897-idaho-prisoners-roast-potatoes-kentucky-they-sell-cattle-prison-labour https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21718897-idaho-... But if you interact with the government, go to McDonalds, etc you're using prison labor. Whole Foods too (http://theweek.com/articles/630907/corporate-america-secret-slave-labor-force http://theweek.com/articles/630907/corporate-america-secret-...) I said "yep" because I figured you were asking a general question; in the specific case Walmart's position is that they don't use prison labor (but plenty of web sites will tell you it's not true. Here's Huffpo: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/al-norman/walmart-prison-labor_b_2224743.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/al-norman/walmart-prison-labo...). This link is pretty good but requires a bit more epistemological digging: https://www.cagedbirdmagazine.com/single-post/2017/03/28/50-Companies-Supporting-Modern-American-Slavery https://www.cagedbirdmagazine.com/single-post/2017/03/28/50-...

by cletus 9y ago

macrael 9y ago

And before that it was the thesis of the book The New Jim Crow. Arguing that the modern incarceration system came into being as a system of control to replace the Jim Crow laws that arose as a system of control to replace slavery. The most 'aha' connection there was that a shocking percentage of black men have felony convictions of some sort or another, and we deny felons the right to vote in most states. Jim Crow indeed.

KGIII 9y ago
> we deny felons the right to vote in most states. Only while incarcerated. http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/felon-voting-rights.aspx http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/felon-v...
- Clubber 9y ago
  Depends on the state. I'm on one of the states in the "Restoration by Governor's Action or Court Action" category, and I can tell you thought it is possible, voting rates are rarely, if ever reinstated in my state.
  - KGIII 9y ago
    Oh, I'm familiar with that. It's just that most don't take away the right to vote permanently. They take it away until you're done serving your sentence and then it is automatically restored. (See the link.) A couple of States even allow inmates to vote while incarcerated. In my now-home State, inmates are encouraged to vote and sometimes politicians will even go campaign inside the prison. That's pretty rare, but has happened. So, it's a temporary loss in most cases. Notably, Maine allows inmates to vote and Maine is overwhelmingly white. Vermont is the same way. In my quest for more information, I found some commentary about that aspect.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > Notably, Maine allows inmates to vote and Maine is overwhelmingly white. Vermont is the same way. Being overwhelmingly white is probably part of the reason; if you don't have a visible black underclass to subjugate, you don't take steps to subjugate them. In discussing the thesis of felon disenfranchisement as part of “the New Jim Crow”, pointing out that states without a notable visible black population don't engage in disenfranchisement is in line with that thesis.
- macrael 9y ago
  I'm curious what "automatic restoration" means. I recall from The New Jim Crow that the process is onerous in many states, involving paperwork and bureaucracy that many don't end up taking the time to do. But maybe that's just in the nine non-automatic states. Ah, and in the paragraph underneath that table: Even in states where ex-offenders automatically regain the right to vote upon completion of their sentence, the process of re-registering to vote often is difficult. One reason is the complexity of the laws and processes surrounding disenfranchisement. In some cases, it is difficult to determine whose rights can be restored. This can vary in some states according to the date of the crime, the conviction, or the release from prison, or the nature of the crime. The complex restoration process also can be daunting. It often involves lengthy paperwork, burdensome documentation, and the involvement and coordination of several state agencies This, again, is why Jim Crow is an apt comparison. It's a web of rules that all together add up to a system of control.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago

It's being downvoted because it's pushing a false narrative that it's only black people that are being incarcerated, and they're being incarcerated explicitly for cheap labor. There are major issues with regards to race in America, but real life is more nuanced than "it's happening because racism."

cavanasm 9y ago
Would "racism is a statistically significant contributing factor" be more palatable for you than "it's happening because racism"?
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  Yes, actually. A nuanced discussion on a nuanced issue is much preferable to ideological squabbles.
chimeracoder 9y ago
> It's being downvoted because it's pushing a false narrative that it's only black people that are being incarcerated, Nobody is saying "only" black people are being incarcerated. They're saying that incarceration is used as a tool to perpetuate many of the same outcomes as slavery. Which is trivially verifiable, if you look at the respective incarceration rates by race. > they're being incarcerated explicitly for cheap labor Virtually all prisoners are required to work for what amounts to as little as $.10/hour. $1/hour is considered an incredibly good wage for a prison job. Prisoners are, by design, excluded from minimum wage laws. This is not limited to private prisons; it includes inmates at state-run and federal prisons too. In California, about a third of the people fighting the recent and ongoing wildfires are prisoners, generally making about $1/hour or less. The maximum they can make is $2.56. Again, this burden largely falls on black and other non-white people, because they're incarcerated at much higher rates and for much longer sentences for the same crimes.
- BearGoesChirp 9y ago
  >if you look at the respective incarceration rates by race. Yet the theory breaks down once you look at a breakdown of race, gender, and SES.

aaron-lebo 9y ago

There's some truth to it but the original post is way too simplistic. They are suggesting that prison, even today, is equivalent to slavery. There is injustice within the modern prison system, but prison is not slavery, at least in the right context it is a place for punishment and rehabilitation. Sure prisons make a profit off their prisoners, but those profits are nothing like those obtained by slavery, it's an extreme exaggeration and the problem with the justice system isn't just race, if someone wants to suggest that. removal of slavery as a punishment What is actually being proposed here? To say we "never quit doing slavery" is to ignore the massive improvements and lives dedicated to get rid of actual, you know, slavery.

mikeash 9y ago
The Constitution explicitly permits slavery for criminals, and many prisons take advantage of this. How is that simplistic?
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  It is simplistic exactly because that is not equivalent to slavery circa 1860 which is what is suggested through "we never quit doing slavery".
  - swasheck 9y ago
    So the post is missing nuance in favor of a "big picture" opinion. I still view it as a thoughtful take on the situation. Then again, I generally only downvote trolls and distractions, not thoughtful posts with which I disagree.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    Slavery has changed but it hasn't ended. The post discusses the changes, so again, what's simplistic?

dominotw 9y ago

> which were then used as cheap or free labour... much like slaves were. Are prisons really profitable though? Do they produce anything of real value from this free labor ?

gumby 9y ago
Prisons are hugely profitable (see the video elsewhere of the Louisiana sheriff) and the prison industrial complex throws off so much cash that its lobbying effort is one of the largest in California (and is why we still have, for example, the three strikes law)
- dominotw 9y ago
  sorry I was referring to GP's comment about cheap labor, not the profitability of prison itself. Are private companies generating significant profit off of cheap prison labor ? Am I buying something from a walmart shelve made from prison labor ?
  - gumby 9y ago
    > Am I buying something from a walmart shelve made from prison labor ? Yep. A quick google search with that very question finds lots of entries, many of course with an axe to grind. The Economist is rather dispassionate on the subject though: https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21718897-idaho-prisoners-roast-potatoes-kentucky-they-sell-cattle-prison-labour https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21718897-idaho-... But if you interact with the government, go to McDonalds, etc you're using prison labor. Whole Foods too (http://theweek.com/articles/630907/corporate-america-secret-slave-labor-force http://theweek.com/articles/630907/corporate-america-secret-...) I said "yep" because I figured you were asking a general question; in the specific case Walmart's position is that they don't use prison labor (but plenty of web sites will tell you it's not true. Here's Huffpo: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/al-norman/walmart-prison-labor_b_2224743.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/al-norman/walmart-prison-labo...). This link is pretty good but requires a bit more epistemological digging: https://www.cagedbirdmagazine.com/single-post/2017/03/28/50-Companies-Supporting-Modern-American-Slavery https://www.cagedbirdmagazine.com/single-post/2017/03/28/50-...