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Ive always taken an unpopular view about slavery. "We never quit doing slavery." It is true the Constitution was amended after the Civil war to include bannin

Ive always taken an unpopular view about slavery. "We never quit doing slavery." It is true the Constitution was amended after the Civil war to include banning of slavery in most circumstances. However, slavery is explicitly still allowed as a "punishment for a crime". Instead of "Black = Slave", it's "Black = criminal , criminal = slave". After all, it only takes only 6-12 angry white men to find you guilty. I would think one of the major points BLM should be making, is removal of slavery as a punishment. It has too many very degenerate ways it can fail - and in some ways I think were very intended. But I doubt in this political climate of this happening. EDIT: Boy, I said it was an unpopular view. Wasn't expecting this much hatred and contention, along with this much -1's. I mean, it's not like the 13th amendment explicitly says.

cletus 9y ago
Not sure why you're being downvoted (+1 from me) but this is essentially the basis of the Netflix documentary 13th [1]. The thesis is that slavery was replaced by excessive incarceration of African Americans, which were then used as cheap or free labour... much like slaves were. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film)
- macrael 9y ago
  And before that it was the thesis of the book The New Jim Crow. Arguing that the modern incarceration system came into being as a system of control to replace the Jim Crow laws that arose as a system of control to replace slavery. The most 'aha' connection there was that a shocking percentage of black men have felony convictions of some sort or another, and we deny felons the right to vote in most states. Jim Crow indeed.
  - KGIII 9y ago
    > we deny felons the right to vote in most states. Only while incarcerated. http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/felon-voting-rights.aspx http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/felon-v...
    - Clubber 9y ago
      Depends on the state. I'm on one of the states in the "Restoration by Governor's Action or Court Action" category, and I can tell you thought it is possible, voting rates are rarely, if ever reinstated in my state.
      - KGIII 9y ago
        Oh, I'm familiar with that. It's just that most don't take away the right to vote permanently. They take it away until you're done serving your sentence and then it is automatically restored. (See the link.) A couple of States even allow inmates to vote while incarcerated. In my now-home State, inmates are encouraged to vote and sometimes politicians will even go campaign inside the prison. That's pretty rare, but has happened. So, it's a temporary loss in most cases. Notably, Maine allows inmates to vote and Maine is overwhelmingly white. Vermont is the same way. In my quest for more information, I found some commentary about that aspect.
        dragonwriter 9y ago
        > Notably, Maine allows inmates to vote and Maine is overwhelmingly white. Vermont is the same way. Being overwhelmingly white is probably part of the reason; if you don't have a visible black underclass to subjugate, you don't take steps to subjugate them. In discussing the thesis of felon disenfranchisement as part of “the New Jim Crow”, pointing out that states without a notable visible black population don't engage in disenfranchisement is in line with that thesis.
    - macrael 9y ago
      I'm curious what "automatic restoration" means. I recall from The New Jim Crow that the process is onerous in many states, involving paperwork and bureaucracy that many don't end up taking the time to do. But maybe that's just in the nine non-automatic states. Ah, and in the paragraph underneath that table: Even in states where ex-offenders automatically regain the right to vote upon completion of their sentence, the process of re-registering to vote often is difficult. One reason is the complexity of the laws and processes surrounding disenfranchisement. In some cases, it is difficult to determine whose rights can be restored. This can vary in some states according to the date of the crime, the conviction, or the release from prison, or the nature of the crime. The complex restoration process also can be daunting. It often involves lengthy paperwork, burdensome documentation, and the involvement and coordination of several state agencies This, again, is why Jim Crow is an apt comparison. It's a web of rules that all together add up to a system of control.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  It's being downvoted because it's pushing a false narrative that it's only black people that are being incarcerated, and they're being incarcerated explicitly for cheap labor. There are major issues with regards to race in America, but real life is more nuanced than "it's happening because racism."
  - cavanasm 9y ago
    Would "racism is a statistically significant contributing factor" be more palatable for you than "it's happening because racism"?
    - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
      Yes, actually. A nuanced discussion on a nuanced issue is much preferable to ideological squabbles.
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > It's being downvoted because it's pushing a false narrative that it's only black people that are being incarcerated, Nobody is saying "only" black people are being incarcerated. They're saying that incarceration is used as a tool to perpetuate many of the same outcomes as slavery. Which is trivially verifiable, if you look at the respective incarceration rates by race. > they're being incarcerated explicitly for cheap labor Virtually all prisoners are required to work for what amounts to as little as $.10/hour. $1/hour is considered an incredibly good wage for a prison job. Prisoners are, by design, excluded from minimum wage laws. This is not limited to private prisons; it includes inmates at state-run and federal prisons too. In California, about a third of the people fighting the recent and ongoing wildfires are prisoners, generally making about $1/hour or less. The maximum they can make is $2.56. Again, this burden largely falls on black and other non-white people, because they're incarcerated at much higher rates and for much longer sentences for the same crimes.
    - BearGoesChirp 9y ago
      >if you look at the respective incarceration rates by race. Yet the theory breaks down once you look at a breakdown of race, gender, and SES.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  There's some truth to it but the original post is way too simplistic. They are suggesting that prison, even today, is equivalent to slavery. There is injustice within the modern prison system, but prison is not slavery, at least in the right context it is a place for punishment and rehabilitation. Sure prisons make a profit off their prisoners, but those profits are nothing like those obtained by slavery, it's an extreme exaggeration and the problem with the justice system isn't just race, if someone wants to suggest that. removal of slavery as a punishment What is actually being proposed here? To say we "never quit doing slavery" is to ignore the massive improvements and lives dedicated to get rid of actual, you know, slavery.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    The Constitution explicitly permits slavery for criminals, and many prisons take advantage of this. How is that simplistic?
    - aaron-lebo 9y ago
      It is simplistic exactly because that is not equivalent to slavery circa 1860 which is what is suggested through "we never quit doing slavery".
      - swasheck 9y ago
        So the post is missing nuance in favor of a "big picture" opinion. I still view it as a thoughtful take on the situation. Then again, I generally only downvote trolls and distractions, not thoughtful posts with which I disagree.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        Slavery has changed but it hasn't ended. The post discusses the changes, so again, what's simplistic?
- dominotw 9y ago
  > which were then used as cheap or free labour... much like slaves were. Are prisons really profitable though? Do they produce anything of real value from this free labor ?
  - gumby 9y ago
    Prisons are hugely profitable (see the video elsewhere of the Louisiana sheriff) and the prison industrial complex throws off so much cash that its lobbying effort is one of the largest in California (and is why we still have, for example, the three strikes law)
    - dominotw 9y ago
      sorry I was referring to GP's comment about cheap labor, not the profitability of prison itself. Are private companies generating significant profit off of cheap prison labor ? Am I buying something from a walmart shelve made from prison labor ?
      - gumby 9y ago
        > Am I buying something from a walmart shelve made from prison labor ? Yep. A quick google search with that very question finds lots of entries, many of course with an axe to grind. The Economist is rather dispassionate on the subject though: https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21718897-idaho-prisoners-roast-potatoes-kentucky-they-sell-cattle-prison-labour https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21718897-idaho-... But if you interact with the government, go to McDonalds, etc you're using prison labor. Whole Foods too (http://theweek.com/articles/630907/corporate-america-secret-slave-labor-force http://theweek.com/articles/630907/corporate-america-secret-...) I said "yep" because I figured you were asking a general question; in the specific case Walmart's position is that they don't use prison labor (but plenty of web sites will tell you it's not true. Here's Huffpo: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/al-norman/walmart-prison-labor_b_2224743.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/al-norman/walmart-prison-labo...). This link is pretty good but requires a bit more epistemological digging: https://www.cagedbirdmagazine.com/single-post/2017/03/28/50-Companies-Supporting-Modern-American-Slavery https://www.cagedbirdmagazine.com/single-post/2017/03/28/50-...
slamdance 9y ago
so we end the war on drugs and outlaw private prisons. Do you really believe this will satisfy BLM? Do you really believe this will solve the problems in the inner cities? Chicago? Baltimore? St. Louis? There are a LOT of fingers pointing for political reasons, yet some topics and ideas are deemed "off-limits".
- lfam 9y ago
  Please, feel free to share your "off-limits" ideas, so that we can judge them in the light of day.
  - slamdance 9y ago
    How about anything regarding "black-on-black" crime? YOu hear about "serial killer" in Tampa after 3 shootings, but nothing about Chicago or Baltimore or Cleveland, etc... WHERE IS BLM THERE? Granted, some cops are assholes. there is no doubt about that. some shouldn't be cops. But as a black man, you're 11 times more likely to be killed by another black man than you are by a cop [1]. Inconvenient facts Or that police officers are almost 20 TIMES more likely to be killed by a black man [2]. Now - Think about the population ratios and what that entails. How about the ENTIRE "Hands Up, Don't Shoot" movement was based on a known LIE. That didn't stop BLM, though, did it? How about being "unarmed" does not mean "docile" or "not dangerous"? How about statistics that that BLM and the regressive left don't like to hear? like how the Welfare system is a GENERATIONAL crutch that drags society and their individual communities down [3-7], but what do people vote for? MORE WELFARE, and anyone who votes against less welfare (or anything that doesn't "redistribute" or otherwise steal money) is obviously racist. Its things like THIS that gave you Trump. Identity politics is what gave you Trump. Yet very few in this country want to take responsibility for their actions or their current situation. It's always someone else's fault, and someone else's job to fix it. Stop wallowing in the past. Today and every tomorrow is a blank sheet. It isn't "my" fault that some people can't see or don't take advantage of their opportunities. But what do I know? You've probably already labeled me a "racist", not knowing my race, not knowing my background or circumstances. [1] http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/c... [2] http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-kno... [3] https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/more-welfare-more-poverty https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/more-welfare-mo... [4] https://www.brookings.edu/research/work-and-marriage-the-way-to-end-poverty-and-welfare/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/work-and-marriage-the-way... [5] http://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/poverty-and-welfare-the-american-founding http://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/povert... [6] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/22/the-enduring-legacy-of-welfare-reform-20-years-later/?utm_term=.e1d9629b857c https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/22/the-e... [7] http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/21/opinion/spalding-welfare-state-dependency/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/21/opinion/spalding-welfare-state... one more for good measure: http://nypost.com/2017/09/26/all-that-kneeling-ignores-the-real-cause-of-soaring-black-homicides/ http://nypost.com/2017/09/26/all-that-kneeling-ignores-the-r...
RingwormOne 9y ago
Slavery has had significant long term effects on the black community. That can't be denied. Disproportionate poverty in the black community is directly tied to slavery. However I disagree that slavery - as the term is usually meant to mean - still exists in the form of incarceration. We as a society have decided that certain things are illegal. The black community, because of poverty (so because of slavery), disproportionately breaks those laws and so there is disproportionate incarceration. Slavery is the root cause of this disproportionate incarceration, but we should not blame the fact that we have a system which punishes criminals, or equate the enforcement of laws with slavery. Instead we should be trying to eliminate outdated laws - the illegality of marijuana for instance - and also reducing crime in the black community.
- bjl 9y ago
  The 13th Amendment explicitly legalises slavery as the punishment for a crime, and its used all the time.
  - RingwormOne 9y ago
    And when we talk about slavery it's usually in the sense of racialized, bondage-from-birth slavery rather than penal labor. The two are very different, and using the word 'slavery' to refer to both conflates meaning and disguises the important differences between the two.
    - lliamander 9y ago
      I think the term you may be looking for is "Noncentral Fallacy" http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_noncentral_fallacy_the_worst_argument_in_the/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_noncentral_fallacy_the_worst...
      - RingwormOne 9y ago
        Exactly. Thank you
    - 9y ago
bottles11 9y ago
Video of a Louisiana sheriff complaining that releasing prisoners means he loses free labor. It's from this month, and Louisiana has some of the highest incarceration rates in the country https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pupvjr3dQmI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pupvjr3dQmI
gumby 9y ago
I was really surprised to see you start with this being an "unpopular view about slavery" but the voting has shown that I was naive. It's pretty uncontroversial to the majority of historians and sociologists that post-reconstruction institutions like sharecropping, Jim Crow, chain gangs, "farms" such as Angola and Parchman, and of course the widespread lynching, were all structural continuations in fact of the previous de jure social system. I guess this topic is like climate change. I have noticed a gross difference in how US history is taught today (to my son and my gf's sons) vs how it was when I attended a US high school. Much less depth, much more boosterism, no discussions of "how would you act if this old institution were still in place today".
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  I don't think it's really that controversial to suggest that Jim Crow, sharecropping, etc, were massive injustices that intentionally limited progress for decades. In the South in public schools (in some places), they do teach us about this. We got to read The Invisible Man in high school, which was incredibly subversive when it was written. I only say this because your post implies that the only reason someone would disagree with them is ignorance or racism, but some of us just have an appreciation for honest views about history, as I'm sure you do.
- occultist_throw 9y ago
  Thank you for acknowledging that. I tend to dig in to certain topics that I feel strongly in. I've had similar response before, on reddit and in real life. Both cases have been, what I could call, nasty responses to matter of factly stating what the 13'th amendment actually says. Or one can look at plenty of longform articles about this very topic. Or countless books in this realm. Or if one doesn't believe the evidence, look no further than that 1 dot per person map, and finding prisons. They stick out. But yeah, "climate change" rage inducing indeed. I mean, we have people denying simple (easily verifiable) claims with feelings and "simplistic" retorts.
BearGoesChirp 9y ago
>Instead of "Black = Slave", it's "Black = criminal , criminal = slave". Except data shows this isn't the case. A closer match is male = criminal, criminal = slave. The legal system is far harsher on a white male than a black female. And even closer is poor = criminal, criminal = slave. The legal system discriminates first on SES, then on gender, and finally on race. So what reasoning is behind there being a disproportionate focus on race over SES and gender?
dang 9y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15542507 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15542507 and marked it off-topic. Would you please stop breaking the site guidelines by posting generic commentary about the voting on your posts, how unpopular your opinions are, and whatnot? It's pontificatory, tedious, and off topic. Also, if you're going to post on an ideologically inflammatory topic like slavery or race, make sure your comment is substantive enough not to be flamebait. An example of how to do this is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15543652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15543652. Your comment fell on the flamebait side. We don't need yet another flamewar! We need thoughtful discussion. Worse, when you start posting comments that go Atwater, Erlichman, and Flint (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15543975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15543975), you're just going full generic, which is what makes flamewars burn hottest and be most tedious. Please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

cletus 9y ago

Not sure why you're being downvoted (+1 from me) but this is essentially the basis of the Netflix documentary 13th [1]. The thesis is that slavery was replaced by excessive incarceration of African Americans, which were then used as cheap or free labour... much like slaves were. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film)

macrael 9y ago
And before that it was the thesis of the book The New Jim Crow. Arguing that the modern incarceration system came into being as a system of control to replace the Jim Crow laws that arose as a system of control to replace slavery. The most 'aha' connection there was that a shocking percentage of black men have felony convictions of some sort or another, and we deny felons the right to vote in most states. Jim Crow indeed.
- KGIII 9y ago
  > we deny felons the right to vote in most states. Only while incarcerated. http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/felon-voting-rights.aspx http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/felon-v...
  - Clubber 9y ago
    Depends on the state. I'm on one of the states in the "Restoration by Governor's Action or Court Action" category, and I can tell you thought it is possible, voting rates are rarely, if ever reinstated in my state.
    - KGIII 9y ago
      Oh, I'm familiar with that. It's just that most don't take away the right to vote permanently. They take it away until you're done serving your sentence and then it is automatically restored. (See the link.) A couple of States even allow inmates to vote while incarcerated. In my now-home State, inmates are encouraged to vote and sometimes politicians will even go campaign inside the prison. That's pretty rare, but has happened. So, it's a temporary loss in most cases. Notably, Maine allows inmates to vote and Maine is overwhelmingly white. Vermont is the same way. In my quest for more information, I found some commentary about that aspect.
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        > Notably, Maine allows inmates to vote and Maine is overwhelmingly white. Vermont is the same way. Being overwhelmingly white is probably part of the reason; if you don't have a visible black underclass to subjugate, you don't take steps to subjugate them. In discussing the thesis of felon disenfranchisement as part of “the New Jim Crow”, pointing out that states without a notable visible black population don't engage in disenfranchisement is in line with that thesis.
  - macrael 9y ago
    I'm curious what "automatic restoration" means. I recall from The New Jim Crow that the process is onerous in many states, involving paperwork and bureaucracy that many don't end up taking the time to do. But maybe that's just in the nine non-automatic states. Ah, and in the paragraph underneath that table: Even in states where ex-offenders automatically regain the right to vote upon completion of their sentence, the process of re-registering to vote often is difficult. One reason is the complexity of the laws and processes surrounding disenfranchisement. In some cases, it is difficult to determine whose rights can be restored. This can vary in some states according to the date of the crime, the conviction, or the release from prison, or the nature of the crime. The complex restoration process also can be daunting. It often involves lengthy paperwork, burdensome documentation, and the involvement and coordination of several state agencies This, again, is why Jim Crow is an apt comparison. It's a web of rules that all together add up to a system of control.
TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
It's being downvoted because it's pushing a false narrative that it's only black people that are being incarcerated, and they're being incarcerated explicitly for cheap labor. There are major issues with regards to race in America, but real life is more nuanced than "it's happening because racism."
- cavanasm 9y ago
  Would "racism is a statistically significant contributing factor" be more palatable for you than "it's happening because racism"?
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    Yes, actually. A nuanced discussion on a nuanced issue is much preferable to ideological squabbles.
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > It's being downvoted because it's pushing a false narrative that it's only black people that are being incarcerated, Nobody is saying "only" black people are being incarcerated. They're saying that incarceration is used as a tool to perpetuate many of the same outcomes as slavery. Which is trivially verifiable, if you look at the respective incarceration rates by race. > they're being incarcerated explicitly for cheap labor Virtually all prisoners are required to work for what amounts to as little as $.10/hour. $1/hour is considered an incredibly good wage for a prison job. Prisoners are, by design, excluded from minimum wage laws. This is not limited to private prisons; it includes inmates at state-run and federal prisons too. In California, about a third of the people fighting the recent and ongoing wildfires are prisoners, generally making about $1/hour or less. The maximum they can make is $2.56. Again, this burden largely falls on black and other non-white people, because they're incarcerated at much higher rates and for much longer sentences for the same crimes.
  - BearGoesChirp 9y ago
    >if you look at the respective incarceration rates by race. Yet the theory breaks down once you look at a breakdown of race, gender, and SES.
aaron-lebo 9y ago
There's some truth to it but the original post is way too simplistic. They are suggesting that prison, even today, is equivalent to slavery. There is injustice within the modern prison system, but prison is not slavery, at least in the right context it is a place for punishment and rehabilitation. Sure prisons make a profit off their prisoners, but those profits are nothing like those obtained by slavery, it's an extreme exaggeration and the problem with the justice system isn't just race, if someone wants to suggest that. removal of slavery as a punishment What is actually being proposed here? To say we "never quit doing slavery" is to ignore the massive improvements and lives dedicated to get rid of actual, you know, slavery.
- mikeash 9y ago
  The Constitution explicitly permits slavery for criminals, and many prisons take advantage of this. How is that simplistic?
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    It is simplistic exactly because that is not equivalent to slavery circa 1860 which is what is suggested through "we never quit doing slavery".
    - swasheck 9y ago
      So the post is missing nuance in favor of a "big picture" opinion. I still view it as a thoughtful take on the situation. Then again, I generally only downvote trolls and distractions, not thoughtful posts with which I disagree.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      Slavery has changed but it hasn't ended. The post discusses the changes, so again, what's simplistic?
dominotw 9y ago
> which were then used as cheap or free labour... much like slaves were. Are prisons really profitable though? Do they produce anything of real value from this free labor ?
- gumby 9y ago
  Prisons are hugely profitable (see the video elsewhere of the Louisiana sheriff) and the prison industrial complex throws off so much cash that its lobbying effort is one of the largest in California (and is why we still have, for example, the three strikes law)
  - dominotw 9y ago
    sorry I was referring to GP's comment about cheap labor, not the profitability of prison itself. Are private companies generating significant profit off of cheap prison labor ? Am I buying something from a walmart shelve made from prison labor ?
    - gumby 9y ago
      > Am I buying something from a walmart shelve made from prison labor ? Yep. A quick google search with that very question finds lots of entries, many of course with an axe to grind. The Economist is rather dispassionate on the subject though: https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21718897-idaho-prisoners-roast-potatoes-kentucky-they-sell-cattle-prison-labour https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21718897-idaho-... But if you interact with the government, go to McDonalds, etc you're using prison labor. Whole Foods too (http://theweek.com/articles/630907/corporate-america-secret-slave-labor-force http://theweek.com/articles/630907/corporate-america-secret-...) I said "yep" because I figured you were asking a general question; in the specific case Walmart's position is that they don't use prison labor (but plenty of web sites will tell you it's not true. Here's Huffpo: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/al-norman/walmart-prison-labor_b_2224743.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/al-norman/walmart-prison-labo...). This link is pretty good but requires a bit more epistemological digging: https://www.cagedbirdmagazine.com/single-post/2017/03/28/50-Companies-Supporting-Modern-American-Slavery https://www.cagedbirdmagazine.com/single-post/2017/03/28/50-...

slamdance 9y ago

so we end the war on drugs and outlaw private prisons. Do you really believe this will satisfy BLM? Do you really believe this will solve the problems in the inner cities? Chicago? Baltimore? St. Louis? There are a LOT of fingers pointing for political reasons, yet some topics and ideas are deemed "off-limits".

lfam 9y ago
Please, feel free to share your "off-limits" ideas, so that we can judge them in the light of day.
- slamdance 9y ago
  How about anything regarding "black-on-black" crime? YOu hear about "serial killer" in Tampa after 3 shootings, but nothing about Chicago or Baltimore or Cleveland, etc... WHERE IS BLM THERE? Granted, some cops are assholes. there is no doubt about that. some shouldn't be cops. But as a black man, you're 11 times more likely to be killed by another black man than you are by a cop [1]. Inconvenient facts Or that police officers are almost 20 TIMES more likely to be killed by a black man [2]. Now - Think about the population ratios and what that entails. How about the ENTIRE "Hands Up, Don't Shoot" movement was based on a known LIE. That didn't stop BLM, though, did it? How about being "unarmed" does not mean "docile" or "not dangerous"? How about statistics that that BLM and the regressive left don't like to hear? like how the Welfare system is a GENERATIONAL crutch that drags society and their individual communities down [3-7], but what do people vote for? MORE WELFARE, and anyone who votes against less welfare (or anything that doesn't "redistribute" or otherwise steal money) is obviously racist. Its things like THIS that gave you Trump. Identity politics is what gave you Trump. Yet very few in this country want to take responsibility for their actions or their current situation. It's always someone else's fault, and someone else's job to fix it. Stop wallowing in the past. Today and every tomorrow is a blank sheet. It isn't "my" fault that some people can't see or don't take advantage of their opportunities. But what do I know? You've probably already labeled me a "racist", not knowing my race, not knowing my background or circumstances. [1] http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/c... [2] http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-kno... [3] https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/more-welfare-more-poverty https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/more-welfare-mo... [4] https://www.brookings.edu/research/work-and-marriage-the-way-to-end-poverty-and-welfare/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/work-and-marriage-the-way... [5] http://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/poverty-and-welfare-the-american-founding http://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/povert... [6] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/22/the-enduring-legacy-of-welfare-reform-20-years-later/?utm_term=.e1d9629b857c https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/22/the-e... [7] http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/21/opinion/spalding-welfare-state-dependency/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/21/opinion/spalding-welfare-state... one more for good measure: http://nypost.com/2017/09/26/all-that-kneeling-ignores-the-real-cause-of-soaring-black-homicides/ http://nypost.com/2017/09/26/all-that-kneeling-ignores-the-r...

RingwormOne 9y ago

Slavery has had significant long term effects on the black community. That can't be denied. Disproportionate poverty in the black community is directly tied to slavery. However I disagree that slavery - as the term is usually meant to mean - still exists in the form of incarceration. We as a society have decided that certain things are illegal. The black community, because of poverty (so because of slavery), disproportionately breaks those laws and so there is disproportionate incarceration. Slavery is the root cause of this disproportionate incarceration, but we should not blame the fact that we have a system which punishes criminals, or equate the enforcement of laws with slavery. Instead we should be trying to eliminate outdated laws - the illegality of marijuana for instance - and also reducing crime in the black community.

bjl 9y ago
The 13th Amendment explicitly legalises slavery as the punishment for a crime, and its used all the time.
- RingwormOne 9y ago
  And when we talk about slavery it's usually in the sense of racialized, bondage-from-birth slavery rather than penal labor. The two are very different, and using the word 'slavery' to refer to both conflates meaning and disguises the important differences between the two.
  - lliamander 9y ago
    I think the term you may be looking for is "Noncentral Fallacy" http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_noncentral_fallacy_the_worst_argument_in_the/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_noncentral_fallacy_the_worst...
    - RingwormOne 9y ago
      Exactly. Thank you
  - 9y ago

bottles11 9y ago

Video of a Louisiana sheriff complaining that releasing prisoners means he loses free labor. It's from this month, and Louisiana has some of the highest incarceration rates in the country https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pupvjr3dQmI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pupvjr3dQmI

gumby 9y ago

I was really surprised to see you start with this being an "unpopular view about slavery" but the voting has shown that I was naive. It's pretty uncontroversial to the majority of historians and sociologists that post-reconstruction institutions like sharecropping, Jim Crow, chain gangs, "farms" such as Angola and Parchman, and of course the widespread lynching, were all structural continuations in fact of the previous de jure social system. I guess this topic is like climate change. I have noticed a gross difference in how US history is taught today (to my son and my gf's sons) vs how it was when I attended a US high school. Much less depth, much more boosterism, no discussions of "how would you act if this old institution were still in place today".

aaron-lebo 9y ago
I don't think it's really that controversial to suggest that Jim Crow, sharecropping, etc, were massive injustices that intentionally limited progress for decades. In the South in public schools (in some places), they do teach us about this. We got to read The Invisible Man in high school, which was incredibly subversive when it was written. I only say this because your post implies that the only reason someone would disagree with them is ignorance or racism, but some of us just have an appreciation for honest views about history, as I'm sure you do.
occultist_throw 9y ago
Thank you for acknowledging that. I tend to dig in to certain topics that I feel strongly in. I've had similar response before, on reddit and in real life. Both cases have been, what I could call, nasty responses to matter of factly stating what the 13'th amendment actually says. Or one can look at plenty of longform articles about this very topic. Or countless books in this realm. Or if one doesn't believe the evidence, look no further than that 1 dot per person map, and finding prisons. They stick out. But yeah, "climate change" rage inducing indeed. I mean, we have people denying simple (easily verifiable) claims with feelings and "simplistic" retorts.

BearGoesChirp 9y ago

>Instead of "Black = Slave", it's "Black = criminal , criminal = slave". Except data shows this isn't the case. A closer match is male = criminal, criminal = slave. The legal system is far harsher on a white male than a black female. And even closer is poor = criminal, criminal = slave. The legal system discriminates first on SES, then on gender, and finally on race. So what reasoning is behind there being a disproportionate focus on race over SES and gender?

dang 9y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15542507 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15542507 and marked it off-topic. Would you please stop breaking the site guidelines by posting generic commentary about the voting on your posts, how unpopular your opinions are, and whatnot? It's pontificatory, tedious, and off topic. Also, if you're going to post on an ideologically inflammatory topic like slavery or race, make sure your comment is substantive enough not to be flamebait. An example of how to do this is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15543652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15543652. Your comment fell on the flamebait side. We don't need yet another flamewar! We need thoughtful discussion. Worse, when you start posting comments that go Atwater, Erlichman, and Flint (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15543975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15543975), you're just going full generic, which is what makes flamewars burn hottest and be most tedious. Please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html