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> But hey if it means farmers grow less corn then I'm all for it! I keep hearing that - least in the US - this is more of a problem with subsidies and perverse

> But hey if it means farmers grow less corn then I'm all for it! I keep hearing that - least in the US - this is more of a problem with subsidies and perverse incentives, is that true? Sincere question from a naive non-economist outsider here.

deadmetheny 9y ago
Yes, absolutely. Corn is grown to excess for purposes of livestock feed and fuel due to various subsidies for ethanol production. At least here in the Midwest, almost none of the corn grown is for actual human consumption. Additionally, corn is an awful crop, it requires a ton of nitrogen and water to grow well. I'm very much for less of it being grown here.
- sliverstorm 9y ago
  corn is an awful crop I've only been gardening a season but I've already come to the same conclusion. The corn stalks were the divas of the bed, wilting days before anything else and underproducing. Especially compared to the squash plants.
  - deadmetheny 9y ago
    Oh dear, corn is an exceptionally terrible garden crop - a high-producing stalk gives you 2-3 ears at maximum, saps the nitrogen in the soil, and requires a ton of space. You'd need to plant a huge volume of it to get any sort of decent harvest. It's a shame, since fresh sweet corn is delicious, but it's something where I'd rather just buy some from a guy who grew a quarter acre of it as a hobby crop.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    If there is ever an apocolypse leaving me dependent on personal agriculture, I’m planting nothing but squash. Until then keep it away from my backyard.
    - 24gttghh 9y ago
      I would rethink your post-apocalyptic single-crop garden if I were you. Diversify, diversify, diversify.
      - twic 9y ago
        If you're in the US and starting with squash, then the logical option would be: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sisters_(agriculture) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sisters_(agriculture)
        sudojudo 9y ago
        I've found companion planting beneficial, but have had terrible luck with the corn aspect of 3-sisters. It seems best suited for warmer US zones (6+), where corn can go in the ground well before beans. Otherwise, the beans will quickly overtake the corn. I always have some tomato cages ready as backup, because even if the corn is big enough to support the beans, a gust of wind can blow it all over. Also, deer eat corn shoots. Damn you, deer. Damn you.
    - deadmetheny 9y ago
      I didn't care much for squash until I discovered spaghetti squash. I'll usually find space for at least one plant now.
      - twic 9y ago
        I love spaghetti squash! Sadly, you rarely see it in the UK. In fact, you rarely see any squash except butternut here, which i'm not a fan of. There's a farm somewhere south of London which does pick-your-own pattypans, and apparently at harvest time is overrun with South Africans, who evidently feel very strongly about them.
        deadmetheny 9y ago
        I've never heard of pattypans, they look absolutely delightful! I may have to experiment with them in the garden next year.
- hinkley 9y ago
  That midwestern corn is unfit for direct human consumption, but it shows up as a number of filler ingredients in highly processed (junk) food. So it's in your cows and chickens, but also in every soda you drink and in your kid's breakfast cereal. And pretty much every commercial baked good (modified food starch). And the mills smell awful. Like someone took a paper mill, and took out the sour part of the smell and replaced it with moldy gym socks.
  - tengbretson 9y ago
    Corn starches and the products created from them are some of the most versatile things we have in commercial food production.
    - hinkley 9y ago
      It’s important to hedge your bets with the food supply, but ‘versatile’ (or even, in the case of corn, durable) isn’t the only or even the most important metric. Nutritious, efficient, healthy are important too. Have you been to the Midwest? There are places where you can drive hundreds of miles and see almost nothing but corn and a bit of soy. If you take the backroads you’ll find pigs, cows, a bit of alfalfa and hay, sweet corn and the odd field of popcorn. But along the interstates it’s corn, soy and more corn to the horizon.
- terravion 9y ago
  But that's the thing, in temperate climates, nothing makes calories as well as corn. Since growers just respond to the external incentives to create ethanol and meat and everything else that's made from those calories, they are actually meeting the need in the most environmentally responsible way. Or put another way, if we were to transition to not corn, which 200 million acres of virgin habitat should we cut down?
gbrown 9y ago
Yes, we mandate a percentage of corn based ethanol in our gasoline, and the crop insurance system is set up for monoculture. We also don't make any attempt to price in the externalities of resource intensive industrial agriculture.
- sliverstorm 9y ago
  The gasoline thing isn't necessarily ridiculous. Some portion of ethanol in gas helps it burn cleaner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygenate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygenate
  - r00fus 9y ago
    I really don't understand why anyone supports ethanol. It's a poor fuel compared to gasoline and any minor improvements to fuel ignore the externalities. It's another massive subsidy to the farming/fertilizer industry. The EREOI of Corn as a fuel is pretty bad. If all this subsidy money were used to instead move to EVs, it'd be better spent.
    - sliverstorm 9y ago
      Is there another smog-reducing, ground-level-ozone-reducing gasoline additive you'd prefer instead?
      - r00fus 9y ago
        Hybrids and EVs are the answer - spending billions on making gasoline additives out of foodstock is not the answer.
        deadmetheny 9y ago
        Immediate cessation of ICE vehicles is not realistic. The changeover will necessarily be gradual. Dumping all of the cash over to EV tech from ethanol production causes a different set of problems.

deadmetheny 9y ago

Yes, absolutely. Corn is grown to excess for purposes of livestock feed and fuel due to various subsidies for ethanol production. At least here in the Midwest, almost none of the corn grown is for actual human consumption. Additionally, corn is an awful crop, it requires a ton of nitrogen and water to grow well. I'm very much for less of it being grown here.

sliverstorm 9y ago
corn is an awful crop I've only been gardening a season but I've already come to the same conclusion. The corn stalks were the divas of the bed, wilting days before anything else and underproducing. Especially compared to the squash plants.
- deadmetheny 9y ago
  Oh dear, corn is an exceptionally terrible garden crop - a high-producing stalk gives you 2-3 ears at maximum, saps the nitrogen in the soil, and requires a ton of space. You'd need to plant a huge volume of it to get any sort of decent harvest. It's a shame, since fresh sweet corn is delicious, but it's something where I'd rather just buy some from a guy who grew a quarter acre of it as a hobby crop.
- tptacek 9y ago
  If there is ever an apocolypse leaving me dependent on personal agriculture, I’m planting nothing but squash. Until then keep it away from my backyard.
  - 24gttghh 9y ago
    I would rethink your post-apocalyptic single-crop garden if I were you. Diversify, diversify, diversify.
    - twic 9y ago
      If you're in the US and starting with squash, then the logical option would be: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sisters_(agriculture) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sisters_(agriculture)
      - sudojudo 9y ago
        I've found companion planting beneficial, but have had terrible luck with the corn aspect of 3-sisters. It seems best suited for warmer US zones (6+), where corn can go in the ground well before beans. Otherwise, the beans will quickly overtake the corn. I always have some tomato cages ready as backup, because even if the corn is big enough to support the beans, a gust of wind can blow it all over. Also, deer eat corn shoots. Damn you, deer. Damn you.
  - deadmetheny 9y ago
    I didn't care much for squash until I discovered spaghetti squash. I'll usually find space for at least one plant now.
    - twic 9y ago
      I love spaghetti squash! Sadly, you rarely see it in the UK. In fact, you rarely see any squash except butternut here, which i'm not a fan of. There's a farm somewhere south of London which does pick-your-own pattypans, and apparently at harvest time is overrun with South Africans, who evidently feel very strongly about them.
      - deadmetheny 9y ago
        I've never heard of pattypans, they look absolutely delightful! I may have to experiment with them in the garden next year.
hinkley 9y ago
That midwestern corn is unfit for direct human consumption, but it shows up as a number of filler ingredients in highly processed (junk) food. So it's in your cows and chickens, but also in every soda you drink and in your kid's breakfast cereal. And pretty much every commercial baked good (modified food starch). And the mills smell awful. Like someone took a paper mill, and took out the sour part of the smell and replaced it with moldy gym socks.
- tengbretson 9y ago
  Corn starches and the products created from them are some of the most versatile things we have in commercial food production.
  - hinkley 9y ago
    It’s important to hedge your bets with the food supply, but ‘versatile’ (or even, in the case of corn, durable) isn’t the only or even the most important metric. Nutritious, efficient, healthy are important too. Have you been to the Midwest? There are places where you can drive hundreds of miles and see almost nothing but corn and a bit of soy. If you take the backroads you’ll find pigs, cows, a bit of alfalfa and hay, sweet corn and the odd field of popcorn. But along the interstates it’s corn, soy and more corn to the horizon.
terravion 9y ago
But that's the thing, in temperate climates, nothing makes calories as well as corn. Since growers just respond to the external incentives to create ethanol and meat and everything else that's made from those calories, they are actually meeting the need in the most environmentally responsible way. Or put another way, if we were to transition to not corn, which 200 million acres of virgin habitat should we cut down?

gbrown 9y ago

Yes, we mandate a percentage of corn based ethanol in our gasoline, and the crop insurance system is set up for monoculture. We also don't make any attempt to price in the externalities of resource intensive industrial agriculture.

sliverstorm 9y ago
The gasoline thing isn't necessarily ridiculous. Some portion of ethanol in gas helps it burn cleaner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygenate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygenate
- r00fus 9y ago
  I really don't understand why anyone supports ethanol. It's a poor fuel compared to gasoline and any minor improvements to fuel ignore the externalities. It's another massive subsidy to the farming/fertilizer industry. The EREOI of Corn as a fuel is pretty bad. If all this subsidy money were used to instead move to EVs, it'd be better spent.
  - sliverstorm 9y ago
    Is there another smog-reducing, ground-level-ozone-reducing gasoline additive you'd prefer instead?
    - r00fus 9y ago
      Hybrids and EVs are the answer - spending billions on making gasoline additives out of foodstock is not the answer.
      - deadmetheny 9y ago
        Immediate cessation of ICE vehicles is not realistic. The changeover will necessarily be gradual. Dumping all of the cash over to EV tech from ethanol production causes a different set of problems.