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If they can engineer it to have a higher gluten content I'd be interested! Until then it is no wheat-replacement by any stretch from my perspective as a baker.

If they can engineer it to have a higher gluten content I'd be interested! Until then it is no wheat-replacement by any stretch from my perspective as a baker. Another grain to add to the arsenal for sure, but in terms of baking it's just another low-gluten flour like buckwheat, amaranth, rice flour, etc, which certainly have their places. I'd try it steamed up with some couscous and veggies as a side-dish for sure. They seem to tout it's no-tillage aspect, but there are already methods of planting wheat without tilling. For instance, the no-till drill[0] One can also plant wheat with low-cover crops like clover to help prevent the inevitable weeds that try to take over in the absence of tillage[1]. But hey if it means farmers grow less corn then I'm all for it! [0]https://www.deere.com/en/seeding-equipment/1590-no-till-drill/ https://www.deere.com/en/seeding-equipment/1590-no-till-dril... [1]http://www.mofga.org/Publications/MaineOrganicFarmerGardener/Summer2016/BanatkaWheat/tabid/3171/Default.aspx http://www.mofga.org/Publications/MaineOrganicFarmerGardener...

pavel_lishin 9y ago
As someone who's fairly unfamiliar with farming - do weeds not tend to pop up in tilled soil? I figured weed seeds would still land and sprout. (Or do most weeds reproduce via underground roots?) Does clover just crowd the weeds out, denying them sunlight? And why are weeds harmful to crops, while clover isn't? Sorry for asking basic 101 questions, but I'm not sure I even know enough to Google around effectively, and don't want to take a random walk wikidive.
- 24gttghh 9y ago
  Well, I only have experience with about an 18m^2 garden, so I'll copy an excerpt from my MOFGA link: > Dutch white [clover] forms a low, dense understory that controls weeds, fixes nitrogen in the soil and remains as a cover crop after the grain harvest. So the clover doesn't compete directly with the wheat, which grows much taller, and it also fixes beneficial nitrogen in the soil for future growth, and the clover helps to prevent other weeds which will compete with the wheat. That's my understanding at least. As for tillage, I believe it levels the playing field, giving one's desired seeded crop an advantage over any established weeds. This PennState article has a good overview: https://extension.psu.edu/an-introduction-to-weed-management-for-conservation-tillage-systems https://extension.psu.edu/an-introduction-to-weed-management...
  - randomdata 9y ago
    > So the clover doesn't compete directly with the wheat, which grows much taller I've got some clover that would give wheat a good run for its money on plant height. However, normally you broadcast the clover well after the wheat has been planted so that it is just starting to establish itself during wheat harvest. There is little to no competition between the crops due to timing their growth phases.
    - 24gttghh 9y ago
      Right, and this specific type of clover is slow growing also.
    - yxhuvud 9y ago
      Some sorts of clover do that, but white clover does not. If anything I'd be worried about it being outcompeted by the high grass.
- rmrm 9y ago
  There are a variety of reasons people till, and a variety of things that it helps, as well as hurts. Its a quite contentious issue. So far as weeds go - if you think of tillage, it will incorporate all vegetative matter back into the soil and you end up with a clean dirt surface to plant in. Tillage in particular is useful for two reasons here - tilling is a method of quickly incorporating amendments into the root zone of plants - those amendments may be a green manure cover crop, animal manure, lime, etc. Tilling also increases new surface area of soil to air, resulting in a massive kill of soil bacteria. This "bloom" of bacteria increases nitrogen availability. This also churns up all of the weed seeds that were buried in the soil, and you will quickly get weeds in a tilled surface as they now have ideal growing conditions, where before they were buried in the dirt too deeply. So you still get weeds with tillage. The reason Roundup resistant crops were developed, is to allow the farmer to spray glycophosphate broadly, and kill off these weeds without killing the desired crop.
vanderZwan 9y ago
> But hey if it means farmers grow less corn then I'm all for it! I keep hearing that - least in the US - this is more of a problem with subsidies and perverse incentives, is that true? Sincere question from a naive non-economist outsider here.
- deadmetheny 9y ago
  Yes, absolutely. Corn is grown to excess for purposes of livestock feed and fuel due to various subsidies for ethanol production. At least here in the Midwest, almost none of the corn grown is for actual human consumption. Additionally, corn is an awful crop, it requires a ton of nitrogen and water to grow well. I'm very much for less of it being grown here.
  - sliverstorm 9y ago
    corn is an awful crop I've only been gardening a season but I've already come to the same conclusion. The corn stalks were the divas of the bed, wilting days before anything else and underproducing. Especially compared to the squash plants.
    - deadmetheny 9y ago
      Oh dear, corn is an exceptionally terrible garden crop - a high-producing stalk gives you 2-3 ears at maximum, saps the nitrogen in the soil, and requires a ton of space. You'd need to plant a huge volume of it to get any sort of decent harvest. It's a shame, since fresh sweet corn is delicious, but it's something where I'd rather just buy some from a guy who grew a quarter acre of it as a hobby crop.
    - tptacek 9y ago
      If there is ever an apocolypse leaving me dependent on personal agriculture, I’m planting nothing but squash. Until then keep it away from my backyard.
      - 24gttghh 9y ago
jobu 9y ago
Since 2001, the potential size of a Kernza seed has doubled, and scientists hope to lengthen its productive lifespan from five to 10 years. That's pretty fast for traditional selective breeding techniques. It would be interesting what kind of progress could be made with genetic engineering. Seems like they're trying to avoid the GMO label, so I would guess it's another 15-20 years before Kernza will be ready for widespread agricultural use.
- DubiousPusher 9y ago
  Just speculating here but that rapid improvement may be because it was a less popular cultivar and thus wasn't exposed to as much tinkering. What I mean is perhaps no one came along and picked the low hanging fruit until now.
- vanderZwan 9y ago
  > That's pretty fast for traditional selective breeding techniques. I wouldn't be surprised those techniques have seen a lot of improvements in recent years too. I mean, surely genetic engineering coming onto the scene doesn't mean everyone just dropped the other methods? There must be a lot of complementary techniques there - I'm sure a lot of modern advances in biology are helpful there as well. EDIT: Heh, I just got to the part of the article where it explicitly describes this: > Kernza’s DNA has never been genetically engineered; its genes get reshuffled via the scattering of pollen, from the male parts of flowers onto the feathery, sticky female parts. But advances in genomics—the -sequencing of DNA—over the last 15 years have made it far easier to tweak Kernza. Almost all of the grain’s genome has now been mapped. Once breeders have a genetic blueprint, they can track down the genes that control particular traits and select individuals with genetic stock that codes for, say, fat seeds or resistance to disease. I hope they're smart enough to keep some kind of "unselected seed bank" to keep a source of higher genetic diversity for quick adaptation.
  - Obi_Juan_Kenobi 9y ago
    There's marker assisted breeding, QTL analysis, etc., but the hard limit is generation time. If you want to introgress a particular trait into a useful background, it's going to take ~5 generations to do it adequately. That generally means 5 years, or sometimes you can squeeze in a winter nursery in the southern hemisphere. Proper QTL analysis requires making suitable inbreds (several generations of selfing), creation of the RILs (another several generations of selfing after the making the F2s), and finally a couple years for gathering trait data. Oh, and this all requires generation of proper markers and so forth. Starting from scratch, this is a decade-long process if everything goes well. As for diversity, you collect wild accessions and those are generally maintained by a seed co-op, often something associated with a university.
randomdata 9y ago
> But hey if it means farmers grow less corn then I'm all for it! It is billed as a wheat replacement. It may erode wheat acres in the future, but is unlikely to touch the corn acres. People would already be growing more wheat and less corn if the profitability was there. But it isn't. There's a reason why farmers have nicknamed wheat "poverty grass".

pavel_lishin 9y ago

As someone who's fairly unfamiliar with farming - do weeds not tend to pop up in tilled soil? I figured weed seeds would still land and sprout. (Or do most weeds reproduce via underground roots?) Does clover just crowd the weeds out, denying them sunlight? And why are weeds harmful to crops, while clover isn't? Sorry for asking basic 101 questions, but I'm not sure I even know enough to Google around effectively, and don't want to take a random walk wikidive.

24gttghh 9y ago
Well, I only have experience with about an 18m^2 garden, so I'll copy an excerpt from my MOFGA link: > Dutch white [clover] forms a low, dense understory that controls weeds, fixes nitrogen in the soil and remains as a cover crop after the grain harvest. So the clover doesn't compete directly with the wheat, which grows much taller, and it also fixes beneficial nitrogen in the soil for future growth, and the clover helps to prevent other weeds which will compete with the wheat. That's my understanding at least. As for tillage, I believe it levels the playing field, giving one's desired seeded crop an advantage over any established weeds. This PennState article has a good overview: https://extension.psu.edu/an-introduction-to-weed-management-for-conservation-tillage-systems https://extension.psu.edu/an-introduction-to-weed-management...
- randomdata 9y ago
  > So the clover doesn't compete directly with the wheat, which grows much taller I've got some clover that would give wheat a good run for its money on plant height. However, normally you broadcast the clover well after the wheat has been planted so that it is just starting to establish itself during wheat harvest. There is little to no competition between the crops due to timing their growth phases.
  - 24gttghh 9y ago
    Right, and this specific type of clover is slow growing also.
  - yxhuvud 9y ago
    Some sorts of clover do that, but white clover does not. If anything I'd be worried about it being outcompeted by the high grass.
rmrm 9y ago
There are a variety of reasons people till, and a variety of things that it helps, as well as hurts. Its a quite contentious issue. So far as weeds go - if you think of tillage, it will incorporate all vegetative matter back into the soil and you end up with a clean dirt surface to plant in. Tillage in particular is useful for two reasons here - tilling is a method of quickly incorporating amendments into the root zone of plants - those amendments may be a green manure cover crop, animal manure, lime, etc. Tilling also increases new surface area of soil to air, resulting in a massive kill of soil bacteria. This "bloom" of bacteria increases nitrogen availability. This also churns up all of the weed seeds that were buried in the soil, and you will quickly get weeds in a tilled surface as they now have ideal growing conditions, where before they were buried in the dirt too deeply. So you still get weeds with tillage. The reason Roundup resistant crops were developed, is to allow the farmer to spray glycophosphate broadly, and kill off these weeds without killing the desired crop.

vanderZwan 9y ago

> But hey if it means farmers grow less corn then I'm all for it! I keep hearing that - least in the US - this is more of a problem with subsidies and perverse incentives, is that true? Sincere question from a naive non-economist outsider here.

deadmetheny 9y ago
Yes, absolutely. Corn is grown to excess for purposes of livestock feed and fuel due to various subsidies for ethanol production. At least here in the Midwest, almost none of the corn grown is for actual human consumption. Additionally, corn is an awful crop, it requires a ton of nitrogen and water to grow well. I'm very much for less of it being grown here.
- sliverstorm 9y ago
  corn is an awful crop I've only been gardening a season but I've already come to the same conclusion. The corn stalks were the divas of the bed, wilting days before anything else and underproducing. Especially compared to the squash plants.
  - deadmetheny 9y ago
    Oh dear, corn is an exceptionally terrible garden crop - a high-producing stalk gives you 2-3 ears at maximum, saps the nitrogen in the soil, and requires a ton of space. You'd need to plant a huge volume of it to get any sort of decent harvest. It's a shame, since fresh sweet corn is delicious, but it's something where I'd rather just buy some from a guy who grew a quarter acre of it as a hobby crop.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    If there is ever an apocolypse leaving me dependent on personal agriculture, I’m planting nothing but squash. Until then keep it away from my backyard.
    - 24gttghh 9y ago

jobu 9y ago

Since 2001, the potential size of a Kernza seed has doubled, and scientists hope to lengthen its productive lifespan from five to 10 years. That's pretty fast for traditional selective breeding techniques. It would be interesting what kind of progress could be made with genetic engineering. Seems like they're trying to avoid the GMO label, so I would guess it's another 15-20 years before Kernza will be ready for widespread agricultural use.

DubiousPusher 9y ago
Just speculating here but that rapid improvement may be because it was a less popular cultivar and thus wasn't exposed to as much tinkering. What I mean is perhaps no one came along and picked the low hanging fruit until now.
vanderZwan 9y ago
> That's pretty fast for traditional selective breeding techniques. I wouldn't be surprised those techniques have seen a lot of improvements in recent years too. I mean, surely genetic engineering coming onto the scene doesn't mean everyone just dropped the other methods? There must be a lot of complementary techniques there - I'm sure a lot of modern advances in biology are helpful there as well. EDIT: Heh, I just got to the part of the article where it explicitly describes this: > Kernza’s DNA has never been genetically engineered; its genes get reshuffled via the scattering of pollen, from the male parts of flowers onto the feathery, sticky female parts. But advances in genomics—the -sequencing of DNA—over the last 15 years have made it far easier to tweak Kernza. Almost all of the grain’s genome has now been mapped. Once breeders have a genetic blueprint, they can track down the genes that control particular traits and select individuals with genetic stock that codes for, say, fat seeds or resistance to disease. I hope they're smart enough to keep some kind of "unselected seed bank" to keep a source of higher genetic diversity for quick adaptation.
- Obi_Juan_Kenobi 9y ago
  There's marker assisted breeding, QTL analysis, etc., but the hard limit is generation time. If you want to introgress a particular trait into a useful background, it's going to take ~5 generations to do it adequately. That generally means 5 years, or sometimes you can squeeze in a winter nursery in the southern hemisphere. Proper QTL analysis requires making suitable inbreds (several generations of selfing), creation of the RILs (another several generations of selfing after the making the F2s), and finally a couple years for gathering trait data. Oh, and this all requires generation of proper markers and so forth. Starting from scratch, this is a decade-long process if everything goes well. As for diversity, you collect wild accessions and those are generally maintained by a seed co-op, often something associated with a university.

randomdata 9y ago

> But hey if it means farmers grow less corn then I'm all for it! It is billed as a wheat replacement. It may erode wheat acres in the future, but is unlikely to touch the corn acres. People would already be growing more wheat and less corn if the profitability was there. But it isn't. There's a reason why farmers have nicknamed wheat "poverty grass".