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Useless design features in modern products
- ggm 9y ago_design features which are included because we value them (apparently) but they serve little or no purpose_ well.. sure. I mean, once you have Helvetica and Times, all the other roman fonts are basically wasting my time. I would argue the rivets still serve a purpose. Maybe its how I wear them, but I have torn the pockets off jeans. The Iconography of Instagram and the resurgence of Polaroid style cameras.. The iconography of the floppy disk as 'save to disk' icon probably won't last much longer mind you.
- mcphage 9y ago> The iconography of the floppy disk as 'save to disk' icon probably won't last much longer mind you. What do you think will replace it? Or are you talking about the idea of an explicit ‘save’ step largely disappearing?
- tomglynch 9y agoSave logo will probably be phased out with a 'upload to cloud' logo
- odammit 9y agoI often see the floppy disk image and think “WTF is that still doing there?” I can’t imagine what my kids will think it is. My parents are completely confused by the power button. My mom thinks it’s a stick figure finger pushing a button.
- King-Aaron 9y agoRelevant... https://twitter.com/TheLazyDog_/status/316681011457048578 https://twitter.com/TheLazyDog_/status/316681011457048578
- majewsky 9y agoCoasters with sharp metal edges on them are indeed a novelty. /s
- acetoxy 9y agoI hope this doesn't happen. I don't want to upload things in the cloud. I pay 20 soles for every 700 MB and I can't afford uploading everything to the cloud. I need to store things locally on my file system and maybe offload them to a USB-stick if I need more space... But not to the cloud...
- flukus 9y agoExplicitly saving will probably disappear, it nearly has already for a lot of people, files and folders as UI primitives will probably follow. I also predict that this will create more problems than it solves, the average person will be heavily restricted in what the can get a computer to do.
- khedoros1 9y agoI predict that I'll stick with systems that don't go that route, whenever possible.
- paulryanrogers 9y agoI was thinking this should be a flash drive.
- gumby 9y agoJeez I can't even remember the last time I saw one of those things much less used ones. Maybe we should go backwards to a feather pen, or a chisel for cuneiform wedges? (or a cloud logo, a CRISPR logo, a blockchain logo, an AI logo or whatever the next buzzword is!)
- loukrazy 9y agoThose “watch” pockets in jeans are great for holding rings.
- tomglynch 9y agoI keep my coins in there - keeps the size of my wallet down.
- beefsack 9y agoI've only ever heard people call them "coin pockets."
- odammit 9y agoI only have one “key”, my car fob. It goes in that little pocket!
- majewsky 9y agoHow do you get into your home?
- odammit 9y agoI have an August lock
- 24gttghh 9y agoIt doesn't seem like that device really adds any more security (it appears to be advertised as being one of the main benefits), as anyone can still pick the deadbolt lock from the outside using a bump key or something. Convenience sure, but not security. Sure, you might know when someone compromises the lock, but the burglar would be gone before the cops show up anyways. Why do we keep insisting on stuffing these phone-home-devices into ever increasing niches of our homes and lives that makes it easier for the government to keep tabs on us? Don't peoples phones already drive them crazy enough as it is? I'm sorry for taking this rant out on you. I'm sure this device met a need for you and that you're comfortable with it. I'm also pretty sure this doesn't fit the topic of discussion here and I am willing to accept the consequences of that.
- tomglynch 9y agoReally interesting. What other examples can you think of?
- gh02t 9y agoScroll lock, break/pause and sys rq keys on keyboards come to mind. They technically still are used for stuff but typically not what they were originally for and they could easily be removed or renamed, but still most full sized keyboards have them. Many, many things about computing apply, really, especially in operating systems and programming languages.
- gumby 9y agoWe still need 'break' but few systems still implement it. Let's leave it in the hope that someone reads the rainbow books and brings it back.
- gumby 9y agoHollerith punch cards (the overwhelming standard...there were other experiments though) were the size they were because Herman Hollerith wanted to use cash handling trays for managing the cards (they used to do statistics on them by lining them up and then manually running metal rods through the holes to see which ones were universal their set! No kidding.). The federal dollars back then were larger than the reserve notes we use today in the US. By the way the usually had rounded corners for the same reason rolodex and library card file cards usually did: less likely to become damaged and then caught in the machine. Whoever wrote that article didn't remember or perhaps had never actually seen, much less used these technologies. My favorite of these fossilized design elements though is on hearses in the US. Ever notice that they have a funny shape, like an elongated italic "S" on the side? It's actually a completely deracinated coach spring! When people started using motorized vehicles to transport coffins, they still liked to use a horse coach for more "formal" occasions like funerals (and coronations...) -- think of JFK's funeral or Queen Elizabeth (mother of the current Queen). Eventually to make the hearses seem more fancy they glued that stupid thing on. Another great one is the fossilized fashions of times gone by. Why do some banks still have fancy fronts or a logo with columns? Because back when banks actually kept their cash around they wanted to show off that they both had a solid building and were profitable enough to spend money on the expensive stuff kinds used...like marble. Nowadays if you visit someone really really rich with a modern house (i.e. castle) it's very often ultra high end glass and steel (Not just California, all over the globe) or exotics (think Geahry). The merely very wealthy are more likely to use the wealth signifiers of the "old days" (gold, crystal, marble).
- odammit 9y ago> Though electric cars don’t need cooling grilles – batteries don’t get as hot and they’re chilled in a different way – many have them anyway to avoid looking weird. s/many/all the ass-backward archaic car companies/ Is Tesla is the only one that doesn’t have a grill? I don’t know if my volt actually has openings but it does have the grill. Totally cool looking -_-
- rahoulb 9y agoThe Hyundai Ioniq electric has a stupid grey panel (regardless of body colour) where the grill would go which makes it stand out. On the hybrid versions this is the grill but on the pure electric they could have made it body-coloured or a fake grill.
- greglindahl 9y agoTesla's cars have cooling grills in the front, they're down low and small enough that people don't notice them.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- hawski 9y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Zoe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Zoe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i-MiEV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i-MiEV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Up#E-up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Up#E-up
- Animats 9y agoThe Chevy Bolt shares a platform with the Chevy Sonic. The grille will probably go away when it gets enough volume for its own platform.
- blacksmith_tb 9y agoMy Prius Prime selectively opens and closes the front grille for cooling vs. aerodynamics[1] which is clever, but I will have to hope its front sensors save me from ever damaging it... 1: http://toyotanews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/nyas+toyota+prius+prime+debut.htm http://toyotanews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/nyas+toyota+...
- gumby 9y agoLove this: > This new material [copper] was much more versatile, since it didn’t have to be painstakingly chipped into shape. It led to a whole range of elaborate inventions, from crowns to ornamental sceptres. But many objects created in this era retained a decidedly stone-age look.
- gumby 9y agoCan't wait for my next phone to come with tail fins. (This article could have been better titled by the BBC as "vestigial traces of older products in the design of newer ones.") And for those lucky enough to never have seen them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_tailfin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_tailfin
- reificator 9y agoI like tailfins. Not all of them, but there's a few that look nice.
- 52-6F-62 9y agoSo do I. I wouldn't mind a return to some of the 50's/60's automotive aesthetics. It could look pretty futuristic at times. One of my favourite photos of Chicago: https://68.media.tumblr.com/67951c2780fe5c66863c2a31caa4d989/tumblr_oo7jiwN7it1vpk144o1_500.jpg https://68.media.tumblr.com/67951c2780fe5c66863c2a31caa4d989...
- KGIII 9y agoThe Volvo P1800.
- gumby 9y agoThink my phone would be faster with a set? It could be an after market item, like a spoiler!
- transitorykris 9y agoThere is an incredible subculture for denim, distressing jeans the old fashioned way, no skeuomorphism here. The pre-WW2 production methods produced a higher quality product (surprise?) but the small looms couldn't produce it fast enough or cheap enough and were sent overseas. The Japanese have carried on producing proper American work wear, while American brands largely produce a simulacrum of American work wear. Sad fact, Cone Mills is shutting down after more than a century, last of its kind in the US.
- grogenaut 9y agoCan you give me some proof, not opinion or social sales speak, that the japanese stuff is "better"? Also how is it comparable to actual work wear sold in the US, like carhart/etc or safety gear?
- wodenokoto 9y agoPlenty of Japanese stuff isn't better. Uniqlo sells a variety of jeans. While cheap and good for the price, it isn't exactly high quality. Is carhart really work wear? All the cool kids wore carhart in junior high 15 years ago where I lived.
- Bartweiss 9y ago> Is carhart really work wear? Yes. It made the to 'cool' on the back of the rugged reputation, but Carhartt jackets are still a common sight on construction sites, out hunting, and so on. The jackets at least really are that good - waterproof and extremely sturdy. It's sort of the same role Red Wing boots have slipped into - they count as cool now, but they're still totally viable as heavy workwear.
- x0x0 9y agoI'd guess they're in a similar position to North Face, who realized there's a lot more people that want to look fashionable than people who need -50F clothing, or even people who actually ski in that temperature range instead of hiding at the bar...
- tempestn 9y ago> Though electric cars don’t need cooling grilles – batteries don’t get as hot and they’re chilled in a different way – many have them anyway to avoid looking weird. This actually isn't true. Electric engines do indeed release a lot less waste heat than internal combustion engines, but they also can't tolerate nearly as high of temperatures. And since heat dissipation is proportional to temperature, their cooling requirements (ie radiator) tend to be similar. Perhaps a bit less, but comparable. Teslas actually do have radiators; they're just mounted low, so they're less obvious. The same could be done in most other cars, although admittedly the electric engine might allow for easier flexibility of layout to accomplish this.
- grogenaut 9y agobut why does it need the grille, if the radiators are low then the grill is in the wrong spot, no?
- pySSK 9y agoYep. Look at Model 3 design. Low radiator grille: https://www.instagram.com/p/BamdM3clVU3/ https://www.instagram.com/p/BamdM3clVU3/
- tempestn 9y agoIt's almost like the reverse of what the article is talking about. People expect electric cars to not need radiators, so they design the Teslas specifically to look different, even though in this way they're actually pretty similar to other cars!
- taneq 9y ago> Electric engines do indeed release a lot less waste heat than internal combustion engines, but they also can't tolerate nearly as high of temperatures. Eh? I thought both topped out around ~100 degrees C? Not that water cooling isn't a good idea for automotive electric drive motors.
- 9y ago
- rdiddly 9y agoThe history of GUI icons is full of this stuff... A pencil for "edit" even though you have a computer now. A floppy disk for "save" even though they went out in the 90s. Manila file folders for files/directories even though few people use them anymore. Wristwatches, and even more old-school: hourglasses, for wait time. ...
- CannisterFlux 9y agoA magnifying glass for search. An ancient-looking camera for screenshots, even though no camera is involved and most people take photos on their phone nowadays. In recent years the floppy disk icon and the hourglass have started falling out of fashion. Sometimes save is a sort of slab with an arrow https://openclipart.org/image/2400px/svg_to_png/32251/document-save-as.png https://openclipart.org/image/2400px/svg_to_png/32251/docume... though loads of places still uses an old-skool 3.5" floppy. The hourglass is often just a spinner now. The pencil is everywhere, though what else could you use? It means more than "pencil" now, I see that and think edit.
- talmand 9y agoThe hourglass is still the equivalent of a spinner. The spinner didn't replace the hourglass as more as became another option for the same thing. An hourglass is still representative of time passing while you are waiting on something. Which is different than a save button referring to an object that you once actually saved data to. The floppy as a save icon was just a bad idea at the time as there were other things to save to.
- criddell 9y agoYour camera example made me think of how digital cameras often have a shutter sound effect when taking a photo.
- AnimalMuppet 9y agoBut the audio feedback that it took a picture is actually useful. Sure, it could be a different sound, but there should be a sound? Why a sound? Because my eye is busy composing the view. I don't want to have to look at some magic place in the view to see if a light flashes or an icon comes up or whatever.
- kpxxx 9y ago> The result: the controls of modern aircraft look very similar to those from the 1930s. http://magazin.lufthansa.com/content/uploads/2016/07/A380-800-Blick-ins-Cockpit-360-Panorama-Startbild-980x653.jpg http://magazin.lufthansa.com/content/uploads/2016/07/A380-80... http://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/5/1/1/0898115.jpg?v=v40 http://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/5/1/1/0898115.... LOL. The "explanation" in the article is mostly poppycock. Modern avionics are based on engineering of human factors. There's no inherent desire for skeuomorphism or even traditionalism. Control modalities that have been tested to work better than potential modern replacements tend to stay, that is all. In military tactical aircraft the differences are even more stark. On the smaller GA scale of aircraft, it isn't so much traditionalism, as economics.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Chaebixi 9y ago> Jeans of all brands still have antiquated watch pockets, now too small to be useful I disagree. They make great coin pockets, which also helps keep my phone from getting scratched up by the coins. Things can still be useful for reasons other than their original purpose.
- reificator 9y agoI use mine for my KeyPort[0] which helps to avoid digging for a keyring. [0]: https://www.mykeyport.com/slide3 https://www.mykeyport.com/slide3
- Sujan 9y agoYep, depending on how tight/loose the pants fit, you can also put a key in there. Won't fall out as easily as from the normal pocket.
- germinalphrase 9y agoThey also can be more secure than the main pocket for a small pocket knife
- Isamu 9y agoHa, I pocket my pocket knife in that pocket as well. Ease of getting to the knife quickly is the thing. The larger pocket is full of everything. I would miss that pocket.
- m-p-3 9y agoI use it for a small amount of spare change/coins, and it works great. No need to figure out by touch if I'm grabbing a coin or a key, etc.
- coliveira 9y agoI use those pockets for keys and other small items. It is useful for me.
- NoodleIncident 9y agoI curl up my headphones and tuck them in there; easy to access, and they tangle up with themselves but not the other 4 things in my pocket.
- bballard 9y agoArchitecture is full of further examples of useless design features, from facades to fascia, to non-load bearing columns. There are entire books (even novels) on this subject.
- dmix 9y agoNot all product design is about functionality. Emotional Design by Don Norman is my favourite book on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Design-Love-Everyday-Things/dp/0465051367/ https://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Design-Love-Everyday-Things...
- coldtea 9y agoWhat people forget is that looking nice is also a function. Utilitarian design is unsufferable -- like those soviet-era buildings...
- Skunkleton 9y agoBrutalism is super cool though.
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y agoDon't forget designs that provide negative value. Mobile micro-payments, addiction-forming designs, "subscribe to our spam" pop-ups... Aside, there's no evidence that DVORAK is better than QWERTY, and the origin story of QWERTY presented here is a common misconception.
- btym 9y ago> there's no evidence that DVORAK is better than QWERTY Here's my go-to reference: http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?keyboard_layouts http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?keyboard_layouts
- x0x0 9y agoThis is worth reading. Someone made a serious effort to quantify differences in effort and strain between keyboard layouts. Thanks for sharing the link!
- coldtea 9y agoAnd here's mine: https://www.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/keys1.html https://www.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/keys1.html
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- rwallace 9y ago> In the United States, wagons were increasingly common on the roads. Drawn by up to 20 animals, they were a popular way of transporting goods over long distances – and the men helming these vehicles liked to drive on the right. They’d sit on the rear leftmost horse, so it was easier to make sure oncoming traffic didn’t get too close if it was also on the left. Why did drivers sit on the leftmost horse?
- Blaine0002 9y agoso it was easier to make sure oncoming traffic didn’t get too close if it was also on the left.
- rwallace 9y agoBut that just re-raises the question of why people switched to driving on the right. The article says riders used to ride on the left, then wagon drivers started sitting on the left, so wagons started driving on the right. Why did wagon drivers started sitting on the left, in a world where people were riding on the left?
- djrogers 9y agoFor context, at this time in history, the side of the road used was mostly determined by custom and convenience - there wasn't enough traffic for there to be established law. In the case of these large wagon train drivers, the drivers, being mostly right handed, wanted to use their crop or whip in their right hand while being able to reach both lines of horses. This dictated that riding on the leftmost horse was most convenient. Conversely, a wagon driver in a (relatively) cramped and crowded city such as London would sit on the right side so as to be able to ensure that his whip did not accidentally hit passers-by, as the direction of travel of the whip from a right-handed person is toward the left. This concern was largely not present in the wide-open spaces of the US.
- xbkingx 9y agoWanting your whippin' arm lined up center makes sense, but it doesn't explain swapping both the side the driver sits on and the side of the road used by the vehicle. If you had free reign on street side, you'd sit on the side opposite your whipping arm because you could pick people up on either side (no safety preference) and would have more control over the whip. These probably changed at different times. If you're on the left side of the street, picking passengers up on the left sidewalk, you'd want to sit on the left side to watch your whip. But, the driver is always on the side furthest from the curb, which makes me think it's more about making sure you don't hit oncoming traffic and picking up passengers. Still doesn't explain the side of the street used. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a royal mannerism edict that said something like, "Gentlemen ambling in opposite directions should always pass one another on the left to ensure they may unsheathe their weapon, should the other engage in dishonorable combat."
- waynecochran 9y agoI like the fact that a part of the space shuttle's design can be traced back to Roman times: http://www.astrodigital.org/space/stshorse.html http://www.astrodigital.org/space/stshorse.html
- sitharus 9y agoIt's an amusing anecdote, but unfortunately false: https://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.asp https://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.asp
- Goronmon 9y agoThat article reads a bit strangely to me. It basically says the anecdote is true, but because it's true for "trivial and unremarkable reasons" they are labeling it as false. Which doesn't seem to make sense to me personally.
- zazen 9y agoYes, snopes is strange like that. You'd think a site dedicated to debunking stories would take care to be precise with the arguments it makes, but snopes often comes across a bit sloppy. But here they still are, after all these years, apparently king of the funny little niche of debunking urban myths!
- tynpeddler 9y agoI read that entire article and came to the conclusion that, regardless of what they said at the top, they agree with most of the claim and only quibble on a few small points. In their own words, “Partly true, but for trivial and unremarkable reasons.”
- waynecochran 9y agoDon't ruin a good story with facts :)
- throw7 9y ago"the cockpits of the most high-tech airplanes are still laden with analogue dials, levers and knobs" , too bad car manufacturers aren't so careful with their infotainment consoles. I'm lucky I still have knobs/buttons on mine, but the more expensive console option did away with all of that and uses an infuriating touch screen slider for the volume... that even must be navigated to to operate.
- std_throwaway 9y agoYou can accurately adjust a rotating knob without looking. They have real benefits that you can't replace with software.
- BartSaM 9y agoToo bad more and more car manufacturers moved into gizmo mode. I think I will never buy tablet-car that have no physical knobs for basics controls.
- logfromblammo 9y agoI even see a large dropoff in usability between my commuter vehicle, which has knobs and levers, and my spouse's vehicle, which has buttons. What makes it worse is that they are unlit buttons. I can quite easily adjust the environmental controls in my vehicle without looking at them, or with a brief glance. In the other car, which I generally only drive at night anyway, I have to at minimum turn on the map light, and sometimes have to stop the car and look down at the mess of 20 identical-feel buttons to push the correct one. The button I really hate is the "mode" button. It is furthest from the driver's seat, and switches between defrost, defrost + low vents, high vents, high vents + low vents, low vents. It doesn't click or beep or give any kind of audio signal. You can't tell by feel. You can either look down at the LCD display to see what it's doing, or you can wait a few seconds for the actuators to adjust the airflow, and then hit the button again if it wasn't what you wanted. This button's function is fulfilled by a knob in my car, and I prefer it that way. I can't even imagine a touchscreen that doesn't even have the tactile-kinesthetic advantage of the fixed-position buttons. How many seconds will I need to look away from the road in order to turn on the AC and blow it at the inside of the windshield if the glass starts to fog up on a hot, humid night?
- cc439 9y ago>But the public like cars to look a certain way. Meh, this isn't all that true in my opinion. A properly designed "grill-less" car can be just as popular if not moreso than a design that adheres to the status quo. Just look at every Corvette from arguably the C2* through the C5. The C4* definitively removed the grill from the design but the C2 and C3* worked them into the nose in a way completely unlike that of a traditional "grill". Then you have the case of the Citroen DS* which has been lauded as one of the most beautiful/cutting edge designs of all time. The lasting popularity and perception of these cars proves that "grills" aren't necessary, it just takes more artistic skill to design a pleasing shape without them. >Though electric cars don’t need cooling grilles – batteries don’t get as hot and they’re chilled in a different way. Now this just isn't true at all unless I'm unaware of some new design that diverges entirely from the Tesla/Nissan/GM school of electric vehicle design. While the radiator of a Tesla Model S*, X, or 3 may be much smaller than that of a typical ICE powered car, it is still large enough to require meaningful airflow through the front end/underbody. The issue with consumer perceptions of the "grill-less" designs isn't that they are innately undesirable, it's that all of the current mass production electric cars are either woefully bland or amateurishly designed. I personally think Tesla's design language is unimaginative and would carry the perception of being 10 years out of date if made by any other brand. Also, even if it was possible to passively cool the battery and motor of an electric car (while still meeting modern expectations of performance), the HVAC system still needs airflow for the AC condenser. Sources: C2: http://www.usedcorvettesforsale.com/img/icons/c2-corvette.jpg http://www.usedcorvettesforsale.com/img/icons/c2-corvette.jp... C3: https://fthmb.tqn.com/gmQGeIVkCGfb6anH9CTM6jBmLuA=/768x0/filters:no_upscale()/W89HV_CH003-56a1ca5b3df78cf7726e05ff.jpg https://fthmb.tqn.com/gmQGeIVkCGfb6anH9CTM6jBmLuA=/768x0/fil... C5: http://image.superchevy.com/f/9271396+w640+h640+q80+re0+cr1+st0/corp_0405_how_to_buy_c5_corvette_z_1%2B2002_c5.jpg http://image.superchevy.com/f/9271396+w640+h640+q80+re0+cr1+... Citroen DS: https://www.classicdriver.com/sites/default/files/styles/two_third_slider/public/cars_images/citroen_ds23ie_1.jpg?itok=_BoBZTtz https://www.classicdriver.com/sites/default/files/styles/two... Tesla Model S Radiator: http://www.r8talk.com/gallery/data/500/Front_Radiators.jpg http://www.r8talk.com/gallery/data/500/Front_Radiators.jpg
- byron_fast 9y agoI had to stop reading when they dismissed analog dials. My car and every thing I own would be easier to use with analog dials.
- deftturtle 9y agoAs a photographer, I totally agree. Much easier to change settings when they're physically on the body or lens.
- rcthompson 9y agoThey also failed to mention the important role of car engine noise in alerting vision-impaired pedestrians to oncoming traffic.
- xtreme 9y agoYou don't even have to be vision impaired to benefit from this. If you are walking along a narrow road or alleyway and a car approaches from behind, the noise will alert you and you can move accordingly.
- rcthompson 9y agoIndeed, we can use an expansive definition of "vision-impaired" that includes people looking at their phones and people without 360-degree panoramic X-ray vision.
- cc439 9y agoI just wish designers would bring back good old analog knobs for radio/HVAC controls. "Automatic Climate Control" systems are bromcing increasingly common even on base model cars and it is slowly driving me insane. Cars are not houses, they do not have the insulation or internal volume needed to maintain a set temperature within 1-2 degrees, plus the enormous amount of glass compared to other surfaces turns them into a greenhouse even in cold but sunny weather. I don't want to play the guessing game of "does setting the temperature at 68 mean I'll get cold or lukewarm air right now?" All I'm left with is a choice between full cold (60F) and full hot (90F) if I'm not in the mood for the computer's guessing games. When I want cold air, I want cold air. When I want lukewarm air, I want lukewarm air. When I have to pick a set point, I get air that isn't right half the time its running. What's worse is that many systems, like that on my Nissan Altima, will override the A/C selector switch. That means I can't help but run the A/C compressor, wasting gas, when I could just be drawing in outside air when the temperature is just fine. Radios have been terrible for a long time now but the shift to user-unfriendly HVAC controls is the last straw for me.