4 ms·

Bluetooth is lossy. Replacements must keep quality of predecessor as a minimum.

by rorykoehler 9y ago

ntsplnkv2 9y ago
> Bluetooth is lossy. And 99% of people don't care.
- codq 9y ago
  ...which is how you slowly erode standards for both twisted fun and massive profit. It's sad and pathetic watching this mission creep of audio degradation at the greed-fueled discretion of corporate profiteering.
  - selectodude 9y ago
    Phone DACs aren't very good. I use a very expensive DAC when I listen to music at home because I actually care. I also own a pair of AirPods because in a noisy city environment walking around it doesn't actually matter that I'm losing fidelity.
    - rorykoehler 9y ago
      As I commented elsewhere the problem with Bluetooth is fatigue related not listening pleasure related. Edit: As a side note the only positive I can see out of removing the headphone jack is the potential proliferation of quality DAC/preamp dongles. Still annoying though.
    - JohnBooty 9y ago
      Simply incorrect, at least on the Apple side of things. Android DACs and onboard amps are hit and miss. http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/iphone-6s-plus-audio-quality.htm http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/iphone-6s-plus-audio-qualit... He's done similar measurements on other Apple audio devices, including their $9 Lightning-to-headphone adapter and they all fare well.
kenferry 9y ago
Do you mean in this case, or in general? I think it's very often the reverse – a disruptive replacement has to really blow past the incumbent in some respect, but it's quite hard for something new to be up to par with the old, polished thing in all respects. PCs were less powerful than mainframes, MP3 is lower quality than CD, etc. etc.
- rorykoehler 9y ago
  They all solved problems. For example you can't carry 10000 cds with you everywhere you go. I can't see what problem Bluetooth is solving apart from allowing companies sell more consumer grade junk. I'm not even a die hard audiophile but Bluetooth headphones take the biscuit. Shittier quality audio (and generally build too) for double the price and you have to charge them too. If there was ever proof that we are brainwashed by consumerism in the same way the North Koreans are by the Kim's, Bluetooth headphones is it. Total worthless junk yet people still drop non-inconsequential amounts cash on it and rave about it.
  - steve_musk 9y ago
    The problem Bluetooth is solving is wires. It’s really something you don’t recognize how annoying it is until you don’t have to deal with it anymore. With aptX the audio quality isn’t bad either. Over time all of those issues (price, build quality, audio quality, battery life, etc.) will only get better, while wired headphones will by definition always have that wire...
    - rorykoehler 9y ago
      Wires are better imo. Anyways they could and do easily offer both to keep everyone happy. No need to remove the wired option. On a side note I found this analysis of aptX very illuminating. I found it after the salesperson in my local B&W store tried tell me it was completely lossless http://www.sereneaudio.com/blog/how-good-is-bluetooth-audio-at-its-best http://www.sereneaudio.com/blog/how-good-is-bluetooth-audio-... I should add that the portable Bluetooth speaker he was demoing sounded great compared to other offerings in the market that I have heard. I wasn't sure if this was more due to the codec or the general quality of the components. The speaker in question is the Dali Kaitch https://www.dali-speakers.com/loudspeakers/active/dali-katch/ https://www.dali-speakers.com/loudspeakers/active/dali-katch... for those who are curious. Apple doesn't support aptX so it's irrelevant to cableless iPhone users.
newlyretired 9y ago
Analog headphones are lossy, I trust compression algorithms to improve more than I believe manufacturers will use more expensive, higher quality materials and connections at the same price point.
- rorykoehler 9y ago
  My Sennheiser HD25s are still going strong after ~18 years service. You cannot find Bluetooth anything that sound remotely as good. Not even for 3 times the price and I can guarantee you that each and every Bluetooth headphone in circulation today will be in landfill in 18 years.
  - criddell 9y ago
    > You cannot find Bluetooth anything that sound remotely as good. In absolute terms, you are certainly right. However, for most people, Bluetooth headphones sound good enough. I'll gladly give up some fidelity if it means I can lose wires.
  - newlyretired 9y ago
    Yes, usage longevity is another factor to consider besides sound quality. However, I was replying to OP, who specifically was talking about the signal loss due to BT encoding. I countered with the fact that analog lines also experience loss, and only the latter has little chance of improving moving forward.

Bluetooth is lossy. Replacements must keep quality of predecessor as a minimum.

ntsplnkv2 9y ago

> Bluetooth is lossy. And 99% of people don't care.

codq 9y ago
...which is how you slowly erode standards for both twisted fun and massive profit. It's sad and pathetic watching this mission creep of audio degradation at the greed-fueled discretion of corporate profiteering.
- selectodude 9y ago
  Phone DACs aren't very good. I use a very expensive DAC when I listen to music at home because I actually care. I also own a pair of AirPods because in a noisy city environment walking around it doesn't actually matter that I'm losing fidelity.
  - rorykoehler 9y ago
    As I commented elsewhere the problem with Bluetooth is fatigue related not listening pleasure related. Edit: As a side note the only positive I can see out of removing the headphone jack is the potential proliferation of quality DAC/preamp dongles. Still annoying though.
  - JohnBooty 9y ago
    Simply incorrect, at least on the Apple side of things. Android DACs and onboard amps are hit and miss. http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/iphone-6s-plus-audio-quality.htm http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/iphone-6s-plus-audio-qualit... He's done similar measurements on other Apple audio devices, including their $9 Lightning-to-headphone adapter and they all fare well.

kenferry 9y ago

Do you mean in this case, or in general? I think it's very often the reverse – a disruptive replacement has to really blow past the incumbent in some respect, but it's quite hard for something new to be up to par with the old, polished thing in all respects. PCs were less powerful than mainframes, MP3 is lower quality than CD, etc. etc.

rorykoehler 9y ago
They all solved problems. For example you can't carry 10000 cds with you everywhere you go. I can't see what problem Bluetooth is solving apart from allowing companies sell more consumer grade junk. I'm not even a die hard audiophile but Bluetooth headphones take the biscuit. Shittier quality audio (and generally build too) for double the price and you have to charge them too. If there was ever proof that we are brainwashed by consumerism in the same way the North Koreans are by the Kim's, Bluetooth headphones is it. Total worthless junk yet people still drop non-inconsequential amounts cash on it and rave about it.
- steve_musk 9y ago
  The problem Bluetooth is solving is wires. It’s really something you don’t recognize how annoying it is until you don’t have to deal with it anymore. With aptX the audio quality isn’t bad either. Over time all of those issues (price, build quality, audio quality, battery life, etc.) will only get better, while wired headphones will by definition always have that wire...
  - rorykoehler 9y ago
    Wires are better imo. Anyways they could and do easily offer both to keep everyone happy. No need to remove the wired option. On a side note I found this analysis of aptX very illuminating. I found it after the salesperson in my local B&W store tried tell me it was completely lossless http://www.sereneaudio.com/blog/how-good-is-bluetooth-audio-at-its-best http://www.sereneaudio.com/blog/how-good-is-bluetooth-audio-... I should add that the portable Bluetooth speaker he was demoing sounded great compared to other offerings in the market that I have heard. I wasn't sure if this was more due to the codec or the general quality of the components. The speaker in question is the Dali Kaitch https://www.dali-speakers.com/loudspeakers/active/dali-katch/ https://www.dali-speakers.com/loudspeakers/active/dali-katch... for those who are curious. Apple doesn't support aptX so it's irrelevant to cableless iPhone users.

newlyretired 9y ago

Analog headphones are lossy, I trust compression algorithms to improve more than I believe manufacturers will use more expensive, higher quality materials and connections at the same price point.

rorykoehler 9y ago
My Sennheiser HD25s are still going strong after ~18 years service. You cannot find Bluetooth anything that sound remotely as good. Not even for 3 times the price and I can guarantee you that each and every Bluetooth headphone in circulation today will be in landfill in 18 years.
- criddell 9y ago
  > You cannot find Bluetooth anything that sound remotely as good. In absolute terms, you are certainly right. However, for most people, Bluetooth headphones sound good enough. I'll gladly give up some fidelity if it means I can lose wires.
- newlyretired 9y ago
  Yes, usage longevity is another factor to consider besides sound quality. However, I was replying to OP, who specifically was talking about the signal loss due to BT encoding. I countered with the fact that analog lines also experience loss, and only the latter has little chance of improving moving forward.