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Sustainable growth is an oxymoron. The economy is a dissipative system. It consumes energy/creates entropy to sustain itself. In its current state it already
by pygy_ 9y ago
Sustainable growth is an oxymoron.
The economy is a dissipative system.
It consumes energy/creates entropy to sustain itself. In its current state it already consumes more than the earth/sun can supply. Having it grow even more means consuming ever more energy (fossil and nuclear fuel is finite, the sun light is constant), and generating ever more entropy (i.e. pollution, heat, and ecosystems destruction).
Edit: also, improvements in efficiency have historically lead to a global increase in energy consumption because of the growth they spurred, and you can't get past 100%.
- mikeash 9y agoHuman energy consumption isn’t anywhere close to what the sun supplies. We just don’t capture much of it. Life is a dissipative system too. It consumes energy and generates entropy. This can’t go on forever, but I wouldn’t take that as an argument against life.
- hjfhwuu383 9y agoLife is the leading cause of death.
- pygy_ 9y agoBut life had up to now evolved to function at a sustainable level. It can't go on forever indeed there's a thing called the heat death of the universe, but it is sufficiently far in the future that I don't care about it. The shit that happens now means that my kids won't be able to have children in good conscience (I already feel sorry for them for the mess I put them in).
- maxerickson 9y agoThe sun can supply an awful lot of power. Humans use something like 10 or 20 terawatts of power (constantly), the sun smacks the earth with ~100 petawatts of power.
- pygy_ 9y agoGiven how destructive we are at 20 TW, I don't want to see what will happen when we consume more.
- pygy_ 9y agoDoes your estimation take into account the energy absorbed by the plans we farm?
- maxerickson 9y agoNo, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption We spend a lot of that sun on meat and other livestock products though: https://ourworldindata.org/yields-and-land-use-in-agriculture/#breakdown-of-global-land-area-today https://ourworldindata.org/yields-and-land-use-in-agricultur... (the numbers in the second figure)
- pygy_ 9y agoThanks
- dredmorbius 9y agoAbout 40% of NPP. https://dge.carnegiescience.edu/DGE/Dukes/Dukes_ClimChange1.pdf https://dge.carnegiescience.edu/DGE/Dukes/Dukes_ClimChange1....
- eplanit 9y agoDiscussions of "sustainable" are, to me, disingenuous and incomplete, because nobody ever wants to confront the root issue: population size. Really, no ecological practice is "sustainable" in the face of ever-increasing population size. If we could achieve stability and predictability in the size and scope of the human species, then we can find truly sustainable practices. Without that, it's just a buzz word.
- pygy_ 9y agoFood limits how far the population can grow anyway. AFAIK the energy consumption (and thus the pollution) for the benefit of developed nations far outweighs the one that benefits the poorer ones whose population increases.