30 ms·

What amazes me about Second Life is that, despite 15 years of technology improvements, it's still an awful user experience to explore. Low framerates, janky loa

What amazes me about Second Life is that, despite 15 years of technology improvements, it's still an awful user experience to explore. Low framerates, janky loading, high latency movement.

untog 9y ago
I'm tempted to look at it the other way - it's amazing that it has been a success for the last 15 years despite low frame rates and janky loading. Suggests the user base don't care much.
- movedx 9y ago
  80/20 principle. They've put in 20% of the effort into most of the game's various parts and achieved 80% of the results they need. It's not perfect, or even good, but it's just enough to be playable.
- LaikaF 9y ago
  As long as it doesn't crash as much as it used to.
- guiambros 9y ago
  > Suggests the user base don't care much. And that's absolutely the case: users don't care that much, despite the teraflops inside our GPUs. While things have changed in the almost 30 years since "Lessons from Habitat" [1] was written, one of the conclusions is still valid nowadays: the implementation is relatively unimportant. The entire paper is a gem; worth checking it out. It has aged wonderfully well, and I never get tired of re-reading it over the years. [1] http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html
- khedoros1 9y ago
  > Suggests the user base don't care much. Survivor bias. I'm one of the ones that played with it for a few weeks, loved the whole idea of the place, and noped out when I couldn't get used to the incessant lag.
jejones3141 9y ago
The great thing about Second Life is that users can build things. The problem with Second Life is that users can build things--including inexperienced users who create highly inefficient objects. (I've read that some creators in SL make a selling point of their high resolution textures that are utterly wasteful given their use.) An SL object or attachment may also have configuration scripts that one might only use just after purchase--but carrying them around with the object has overhead. An SL user whose avatar is named Penny Patton has written extensively about such issues in her blog "The Digital Pasture"; her posts are worth reading.
- LaikaF 9y ago
  Back when I played it wasn't uncommon for a person to have an animation overrider, and another form multitool. The end result being two objects with a lot of listeners that stacks with each person you're standing next to. I played in the era before sculpted prims were really a thing and everything was made by just stacking a ton together and using texturing tricks. Some of the stuff I built hit the link limit.
- michaelbuckbee 9y ago
  Here's a common example: jewelry. Things like necklaces, etc. were modeled as you would a real physical necklace, no "cheating". So every chain link in the necklace would be a distinct polygonal object (prim)...that would then have physics enabled. And that's neat, but they'd then be shrunken down to the point where you couldn't see them anyway. But it's what "sold" them, so in many ways it mirrors the bloated web dev we see today.
  - mintplant 9y ago
    > So every chain link in the necklace would be a distinct polygonal object (prim)...that would then have physics enabled. Avatar attachments such as jewelry aren't physics-simulated.
- BatFastard 9y ago
  The thing is, you don't have to have a shitty user experience to build things. But they were a typical SV company in that they knew everything! It's just the the SL premise of "Prims" was not scalable. That and their regions were not scalable in the past, not sure if they have corrected that or not.
ClassyJacket 9y ago
I'm disappointed they haven't fixed the server-side character movement. Even in a slow, non-action game like Second Life, client-side player movement is essential to making the game feel natural. And while I don't expect Linden Lab to have the budget of, say, World of Warcraft, plenty of smaller games have implemented it because it's so important to the user experience. Waiting for the server to affirm your button press to move your character just makes the game feel instantly wrong and frustrating.
- sbierwagen 9y ago
  Client-side prediction can be hard to add to a existing codebase. Adding it to a game and not breaking backwards compatibility with user-made content and scripting is going to be impossible. Remember: real people have spent real money on in-game items, you can't just rev the API and say the old items are gone. You can't do refunds either: players paid other players for items, ten years ago, using long-expired credit cards, sometimes from expired people.
brlewis 9y ago
For people who want low latency, aren't text-based MUD games still around?
- tytytytytytytyt 9y ago
  Yes, try www.mudconnector.com or www.mudlistings.com
jpindar 9y ago
The real technology improvement has been going on at InWorldz, which forked off of the Second Life server code about 7 years ago. It's still mostly compatible (you can use any of the same clients, I recommend Firestorm), but they've made a fantastic amount of improvement in performance as well as customer service. I can't remember the last time I had a low frame rate or any lag there. www.inworldz.com
- return0 9y ago
  they forked opensimulator, not the second life server (which was never open sourced i think)
  - jpindar 9y ago
    Ah, you're right, it was the client that LL open sourced.

What amazes me about Second Life is that, despite 15 years of technology improvements, it's still an awful user experience to explore. Low framerates, janky loading, high latency movement.

untog 9y ago

I'm tempted to look at it the other way - it's amazing that it has been a success for the last 15 years despite low frame rates and janky loading. Suggests the user base don't care much.

movedx 9y ago
80/20 principle. They've put in 20% of the effort into most of the game's various parts and achieved 80% of the results they need. It's not perfect, or even good, but it's just enough to be playable.
LaikaF 9y ago
As long as it doesn't crash as much as it used to.
guiambros 9y ago
> Suggests the user base don't care much. And that's absolutely the case: users don't care that much, despite the teraflops inside our GPUs. While things have changed in the almost 30 years since "Lessons from Habitat" [1] was written, one of the conclusions is still valid nowadays: the implementation is relatively unimportant. The entire paper is a gem; worth checking it out. It has aged wonderfully well, and I never get tired of re-reading it over the years. [1] http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html
khedoros1 9y ago
> Suggests the user base don't care much. Survivor bias. I'm one of the ones that played with it for a few weeks, loved the whole idea of the place, and noped out when I couldn't get used to the incessant lag.

jejones3141 9y ago

The great thing about Second Life is that users can build things. The problem with Second Life is that users can build things--including inexperienced users who create highly inefficient objects. (I've read that some creators in SL make a selling point of their high resolution textures that are utterly wasteful given their use.) An SL object or attachment may also have configuration scripts that one might only use just after purchase--but carrying them around with the object has overhead. An SL user whose avatar is named Penny Patton has written extensively about such issues in her blog "The Digital Pasture"; her posts are worth reading.

LaikaF 9y ago
Back when I played it wasn't uncommon for a person to have an animation overrider, and another form multitool. The end result being two objects with a lot of listeners that stacks with each person you're standing next to. I played in the era before sculpted prims were really a thing and everything was made by just stacking a ton together and using texturing tricks. Some of the stuff I built hit the link limit.
michaelbuckbee 9y ago
Here's a common example: jewelry. Things like necklaces, etc. were modeled as you would a real physical necklace, no "cheating". So every chain link in the necklace would be a distinct polygonal object (prim)...that would then have physics enabled. And that's neat, but they'd then be shrunken down to the point where you couldn't see them anyway. But it's what "sold" them, so in many ways it mirrors the bloated web dev we see today.
- mintplant 9y ago
  > So every chain link in the necklace would be a distinct polygonal object (prim)...that would then have physics enabled. Avatar attachments such as jewelry aren't physics-simulated.
BatFastard 9y ago
The thing is, you don't have to have a shitty user experience to build things. But they were a typical SV company in that they knew everything! It's just the the SL premise of "Prims" was not scalable. That and their regions were not scalable in the past, not sure if they have corrected that or not.

ClassyJacket 9y ago

I'm disappointed they haven't fixed the server-side character movement. Even in a slow, non-action game like Second Life, client-side player movement is essential to making the game feel natural. And while I don't expect Linden Lab to have the budget of, say, World of Warcraft, plenty of smaller games have implemented it because it's so important to the user experience. Waiting for the server to affirm your button press to move your character just makes the game feel instantly wrong and frustrating.

sbierwagen 9y ago
Client-side prediction can be hard to add to a existing codebase. Adding it to a game and not breaking backwards compatibility with user-made content and scripting is going to be impossible. Remember: real people have spent real money on in-game items, you can't just rev the API and say the old items are gone. You can't do refunds either: players paid other players for items, ten years ago, using long-expired credit cards, sometimes from expired people.

brlewis 9y ago

For people who want low latency, aren't text-based MUD games still around?

tytytytytytytyt 9y ago
Yes, try www.mudconnector.com or www.mudlistings.com

jpindar 9y ago

The real technology improvement has been going on at InWorldz, which forked off of the Second Life server code about 7 years ago. It's still mostly compatible (you can use any of the same clients, I recommend Firestorm), but they've made a fantastic amount of improvement in performance as well as customer service. I can't remember the last time I had a low frame rate or any lag there. www.inworldz.com

return0 9y ago
they forked opensimulator, not the second life server (which was never open sourced i think)
- jpindar 9y ago
  Ah, you're right, it was the client that LL open sourced.