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You're really citing results from an authoritarian regime known for scrubbing numbers and propaganda as evidence of popular support?

r00fus 9y ago
Wait are we talking about Trump or Maduro?
abalone 9y ago
No, there is good reason to believe the election was fair. The mainstream U.S. reporting on this is extremely biased; the U.S. has a long history of deeply anti-democractic attitudes towards Latin America (since at least the Monroe Doctrine). Excellent and detailed reporting here:[1] "...key opposition candidates in the governor's races in Venezuela are gradually accepting the results as legitimate, except for one controversial close race that is being challenged in the State of Bolivar where opposition has some serious allegations due to the discrepancy in the results that the CNE announced, that's the election commission in Venezuela, the results that they announce and the printout of the report that was given to each party by the voting machines." "ALEXANDER MAIN: First of all, it's really nothing new... Already in 2002, much of the corporate media internationally was suggesting that the presidency of Chávez had become something of a dictatorship and completely ignoring some of the anti-democratic activities of the opposition parties in Venezuela, and namely a coup d'etat was supported by most of Venezuela's opposition parties in April of 2002. This was initially represented as some sort of a popular uprising against the dictatorship, and it was really, I think, thanks to the reaction of other governments in the region that clearly saw that there was a coup d'etat that the narrative began to change around that. "Soon afterwards, we got back into this tradition of suggesting that there was creeping authoritarianism going on in Venezuela. Very little was said about the fact that nearly every year, sometimes twice a year in Venezuela, you had elections being held at different institutional levels. These elections would typically have very big turnouts, they'd be very transparent, very free and fair... In fact, it can be argued that the electoral system in Venezuela has gotten more and more refined in terms of the degree of transparency, to the extent that in fact, it [speaks] in part to that transparency and the internal checks and balances that today you do have this controversy in the state of Bolivar... They can do this, in fact, because they have records from electronic voting machines, which everyone believes... the fact is that you have a system that's in place that can very easily allow for verification... It really is sort of a direct contradiction of this constant claim that the country is slipping into dictatorship. You don't have that when you have constant elections in which people, the majority of voters participate and where you can have confidence in the results." [1] http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=20273 http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=...
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  Chavez was a military man who established a dictatorship, and his successor continues. You are kidding yourself if you really think this has anything to do with big bad guy US. Not all problems derive from the US.
  - smnrchrds 9y ago
    If you consider Chavez's presidency as dictatorship, you are very mistaken. He was a populist, but never a dictator. I know Vox is not always the best source of news, but this article is spot on: https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/world/2017/9/19/16189742/venezuela-maduro-dictator-chavez-collapse https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/world/2017/9/19/16189742/ve...
    - aaron-lebo 9y ago
      This is technically true, but while in office, Chavez eliminated most of the institutions necessary for a healthy democracy (eg independent judiciary). If he was not technically a dictator, he acted like one, and his successor is filling the role he made possible.
- Bartweiss 9y ago
  My go-to source on this has actually been Jacobin - first because socialist regimes abroad are their wheelhouse, and second because they're particularly incentivized to give a positive view of Venezuela. They gave Chavez consistent support well past 2002, which makes me think they're not subject to the criticism you've offered here. And yet... Well, these days their reporting looks like: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/07/venezuela-maduro-helicopter-attack-psuv-extractivism-oil https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/07/venezuela-maduro-helicopt... https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/07/venezuela-elections-chavez-maduro-bolivarianism https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/07/venezuela-elections-chave... https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/05/venezuela-crisis-maduro-opposition-violence-elections-economy https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/05/venezuela-crisis-maduro-o... You don't have to be a capitalist imperialist to recognize that this particular government has abandoned legitimacy and the interests of the people.
baursak 9y ago
As I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I recommend watching Abby Martin's on the ground reporting in Venezuela to get a full picture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUYWrPiUeWY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUYWrPiUeWY (this particular episode is one of many examples)

r00fus 9y ago

Wait are we talking about Trump or Maduro?

abalone 9y ago

No, there is good reason to believe the election was fair. The mainstream U.S. reporting on this is extremely biased; the U.S. has a long history of deeply anti-democractic attitudes towards Latin America (since at least the Monroe Doctrine). Excellent and detailed reporting here:[1] "...key opposition candidates in the governor's races in Venezuela are gradually accepting the results as legitimate, except for one controversial close race that is being challenged in the State of Bolivar where opposition has some serious allegations due to the discrepancy in the results that the CNE announced, that's the election commission in Venezuela, the results that they announce and the printout of the report that was given to each party by the voting machines." "ALEXANDER MAIN: First of all, it's really nothing new... Already in 2002, much of the corporate media internationally was suggesting that the presidency of Chávez had become something of a dictatorship and completely ignoring some of the anti-democratic activities of the opposition parties in Venezuela, and namely a coup d'etat was supported by most of Venezuela's opposition parties in April of 2002. This was initially represented as some sort of a popular uprising against the dictatorship, and it was really, I think, thanks to the reaction of other governments in the region that clearly saw that there was a coup d'etat that the narrative began to change around that. "Soon afterwards, we got back into this tradition of suggesting that there was creeping authoritarianism going on in Venezuela. Very little was said about the fact that nearly every year, sometimes twice a year in Venezuela, you had elections being held at different institutional levels. These elections would typically have very big turnouts, they'd be very transparent, very free and fair... In fact, it can be argued that the electoral system in Venezuela has gotten more and more refined in terms of the degree of transparency, to the extent that in fact, it [speaks] in part to that transparency and the internal checks and balances that today you do have this controversy in the state of Bolivar... They can do this, in fact, because they have records from electronic voting machines, which everyone believes... the fact is that you have a system that's in place that can very easily allow for verification... It really is sort of a direct contradiction of this constant claim that the country is slipping into dictatorship. You don't have that when you have constant elections in which people, the majority of voters participate and where you can have confidence in the results." [1] http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=20273 http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=...

aaron-lebo 9y ago
Chavez was a military man who established a dictatorship, and his successor continues. You are kidding yourself if you really think this has anything to do with big bad guy US. Not all problems derive from the US.
- smnrchrds 9y ago
  If you consider Chavez's presidency as dictatorship, you are very mistaken. He was a populist, but never a dictator. I know Vox is not always the best source of news, but this article is spot on: https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/world/2017/9/19/16189742/venezuela-maduro-dictator-chavez-collapse https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/world/2017/9/19/16189742/ve...
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    This is technically true, but while in office, Chavez eliminated most of the institutions necessary for a healthy democracy (eg independent judiciary). If he was not technically a dictator, he acted like one, and his successor is filling the role he made possible.
Bartweiss 9y ago
My go-to source on this has actually been Jacobin - first because socialist regimes abroad are their wheelhouse, and second because they're particularly incentivized to give a positive view of Venezuela. They gave Chavez consistent support well past 2002, which makes me think they're not subject to the criticism you've offered here. And yet... Well, these days their reporting looks like: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/07/venezuela-maduro-helicopter-attack-psuv-extractivism-oil https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/07/venezuela-maduro-helicopt... https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/07/venezuela-elections-chavez-maduro-bolivarianism https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/07/venezuela-elections-chave... https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/05/venezuela-crisis-maduro-opposition-violence-elections-economy https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/05/venezuela-crisis-maduro-o... You don't have to be a capitalist imperialist to recognize that this particular government has abandoned legitimacy and the interests of the people.

baursak 9y ago

As I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I recommend watching Abby Martin's on the ground reporting in Venezuela to get a full picture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUYWrPiUeWY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUYWrPiUeWY (this particular episode is one of many examples)