7 ms·

Also interesting, and related, that the Flat Iron School was fined for almost a half million dollars for fraudulent salary claims and operating without a licens

• SOLAR_FIELDS 9y ago
  Probably a good move all around, WeWork gets the devalued product on the cheap and Flatiron founders exit and the company can say that under new management things will be different
  • pcarolan 9y ago
    Is this how we’re defining success now?
    • bhtru 9y ago
      It's a success if it works out. It's a calculated risk right now.
    • scoggs 9y ago
      I know it's completely impossible to decouple things like money and economics from education but as someone who obtained a degree with a focus in education and also has over a decade of experience working with young students it really hurts me to know that our youth are starting off, usually, on the wrong foot because adults are always playing politics with education. The way we define success. The ways we measure knowledge and success in students. The entire system from education on upward needs a good long looking at. Under our current way of doing things (I can only speak for the US) we've realized that throwing money at a problem is not the only solution but so long as delivering "results" is the metric by which grants and money is given to school districts we will always run into people stopping at nothing to meet the qualifications for such endowments.
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  • kafkaesq 9y ago
    I beg to differ. I find it hardly emboldening to learn that the founders got a sweet exit, or that WeWork gets a toehold in some new market. When the former students are justly compensated for their dashed hopes and tarnished reputations† -- that I'd consider to be "probably a good move all around." † "Ah, I see you went to the Flatiron School - heard about all the crazy shit that went down there. Which we won't hold against you. But please understand that you'll have to go through 3x as many Dance Monkey sessions as most of the other candidates, just so we can be doubly sure we aren't taking on any damaged good, you see. Oh you've never played Dance Monkey? It's easy, just come to this whiteboard here. Yeah that's right, the one with the squeaky markers, behind the busted swivel-chair..."
• Fergusman 9y ago
  Just to get another perspective here is a former employee's take on the fine. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15492897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15492897
  • tkone 9y ago
    Which says nothing about operating without a license -- which is a large part of the AG's claim. AS far as the false advertising, that is way less of a case than the use of non-licensed teachers and lack of operating license.
    • trumpownsyou420 9y ago
      99% of these bootcamps are run by scumbags, i'm a grad from one run by "trilogy education services" and it was absolute crap. i had to teach myself while they inflated their employment numbers by making kids that just graduate teaches and TAs. absolutely deplorable and these camps are borderline ponzi at this point.
    • WoodenChair 9y ago
      Why is it important that teachers are licensed? I work in a teaching college; there is no such thing as a "college professor license" yet I think my colleagues do a very good job teaching. If licensing teachers ensures quality, then our K-12 system should be great. However, as you know the K-!2 system in USA is a joke... yet our college system on average, without any "licensed teachers," is fairly world class.
      • HarryHirsch 9y ago
        there is no such thing as a "college professor license" Our accreditating agency insists that that faculty members have got a degree (actually 18 credit hours at graduate level) in the subject they teach. If you are a foreigner it's a pain in the arse, because you need to produce an equivalency evaluation, even more so when your degree wasn't modular. It causes complications when you teach an allied subject (say your degree certificate says you are a physicist and teach physical chemistry in the chemistry department) but it's easy to see why the accreditator insists: there was a time when there were too many unqualified people teaching. The real trouble occurs when the institution mistakes certification for qualification, but that's a different story.
• weatherlight 9y ago
  if you dig a little bit, you'd see that the claims weren't fraudulent.
  • brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
    if you dig even further, like into Enbar's claims on Quora, you'd see that they were highly misleading. if you dig even further, you'd realize that they were vague about who got what- to say nothing of ageism.
    • brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
      To detail: I think these code schools should be transparent about the race, gender, age, prior experience, previous degrees/where they were obtained, family connection to industry, and their relationships with hiring partners for those who get each job. That would be impressive transparency. There is a reason why this kind of transparency isn't available, but it should be. I'm not sure that hooking up with WeWork is going to head in that direction of radical transparency. I fear that it will just contribute to the further ossification of current closed circles of job entry and keep it even more "in the family" than it already is, while not expanding that family and appearing really "exciting" and bursting with possibility for cross pollination. But appearances seem to be everything.
• brookside 9y ago
  I have no love for Flat Iron since ...well, they rejected me a few years ago when I started my code journey. However, I think this fine is somewhat bullshit. Flatiron did release all of the relevant job figures in an accurate way, even if the marketing headline was, indeed, misleading. What is the benefit for students of the school being licensed? What does that process bring to the table? I'm sure justifies the existence of some bureaucrats, but it's my understanding that truly terrible GI Bill scam schools are licensed.
  • trowawee 9y ago
    Personally, as a bootcamp grad (not from Flatiron), I wouldn't necessarily call the fine bullshit. If you scream the manipulated numbers and stick the details of the manipulation somewhere where very few people are likely to ever look, I kinda think you should get smacked down. The problem I have is that that same standard isn't applied to lots of other areas of education, including some (like the utter scam that is T3 and most T2 law schools) that are doing way, way more damage to way, way more people than every coding bootcamp in the country put together. I have friends who went to a T3 law school in the Midwest. The total cost of attendance is estimated at $62,500. The bar passage rate is around 74% (#157 nationally). On the marketing site reporting their stats, they tell prospective students that "nearly 75% [of] class of 2016 students [are] employed, pursuing further education, or not seeking employment", but when you actually dig into their ABA disclosure numbers (tucked away on a subsite, clearly obscured), you can see that only 73 of 127 grads are employed in full time, long term positions that require a JD. Since the reason most people go to law school is to get into those kinds of positions, it is more accurate to describe the employment rate as "around 54%". And from knowing some of the people graduating, I can tell you that the salary at those positions isn't great. Average starting salaries hover in the $50-55k range (self-reported, so...with a huge caveat). Given a price of $187,500, that level of bar passage, employment rate, and salary is criminal. That's a real scam, and it's replicated all over the country in hundreds of terrible law schools, and most of them have the imprimatur of a legitimate educational enterprise via their associated universities and the tacit or explicit support of large chunks of society. And it's only now, after two decades of the problem getting worse and worse, that states are starting to crack down on the worst offenders (while the ordinary every-day criminals, like the school in the previous paragraph, are allowed to go unchecked). I would appreciate if the scrutiny being applied to bootcamps (which I think is necessary and important) was applied equally to other potentially-scammy educational enterprises, no matter how long-running the con is.
• notyourday 9y ago
  This is just laughable. Now, I have no love for any coding bootcamps - in my view they are only effective in separating fools and fool's money. So far every coding bootcamp that I know of is just the Agile version of ITT Tech. That being said, NY AG is a political hack. He is not doing that well so he needs to get some wins he can flaunt and going after bootcamps is much easier than doing after finance companies or real estate schemes.
  • brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
    Interestingly, and funny you should mention real estate... the Enbars are also very deep into NYC real estate. (Adam Enbar is the CEO of the Flatiron School) And you are right- the real estate situation in NYC is a disaster for rental tenants. It seems like De Blasio and the AG support real change, but when it comes down to it, tenants can't afford to defend themselves against the tycoons who own property even when the tycoons are in the wrong. So, the for-profit schools are an easier target in that they involve a lot less of the wealth of NYC than real estate feeding into politics but the schools are somewhat similar in that they too oppress those who seek a "fair" way into the economy with certain protections offered by the state.
    • notyourday 9y ago
      > It seems like De Blasio and the AG support real change, If AG supported the real change, he would have used the effectively an unlimited legal muscle his office has to go after the "in the wrong" real estate tycoons.
      • brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
        Absolutely he should! De Blasio did sign off on some "conceptually" important legislation protecting tenants from landlord harassment. He even followed through in some egregious cases--a small but important conceptual step. But affordable housing that is safe for tenants to actually live in remains elusive because the penalties for predatory landlords aren't high enough and because a landmark case involving reciprocal financial responsibility on the prevailing party in housing court made it more precarious for tenants to pursue legal relief. (the case decided that no party thoroughly prevailed, so the landlord didn't have to pay legal costs for the tenant to defend their rights, even though the tenant effectively "won" the case- they came out with a net loss-- and now this case is legal precedent, and a powerful deterrent to tenants who fight for their rights in court) But in this topic in NYC and in the US in general, there is a real lack of effective, job-getting education, as you of course already know. And then these for-profit ed institutions claim to be solving this problem. I'm not sure oversight can be the way forward here. There is just too much political interdependency here. Perhaps the way forward is for people to speak out about their experience with bold honesty. This is difficult for students to do at these schools, and therein lies the dilemma, because they don't want devalue this $$$ education before it even helps them. What many realize later is that this idea of "culture fit" in every sense of the word will bar many of them for the field. This is why people need to start speaking out about diversity in tech. Well, it has started, but we need a deluge of truth here. We need real reporting on this false idea of a skills gap that isn't real if it doesn't admit members of certain groups unless they are the next Wozniak on crack.
• austenallred 9y ago
  To be fair, as far as bootcamp statistics goes, Flatiron is among the most fair and honest. You should see some of the other stuff bootcamps get away with.