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So true. I find it crazy how a good amount of people in my generation(I'm in the US and an young engineer so my statistic is probably skewed) find that if you'r

So true. I find it crazy how a good amount of people in my generation(I'm in the US and an young engineer so my statistic is probably skewed) find that if you're not spending your time doing then you're wasting your life. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with someone making an honest working a 9-5 job and going home to do whatever they want. Regardless if its watching sports or TV all night. Also, the end of the blogpost is kind of disingenuous. Knowing when to quit is as important as knowing when not to quit. Hard work does not always pay off.

maccard 9y ago
> and going home to do whatever they want. Regardless if its watching sports or TV all night. There's a difference between wanting to do that, and feeling unable to do anything else. If you _want_ to go home and veg for an evening that's OK, but if you can't do anything else, that's probably not OK.
- JohnKacz 9y ago
  I would say that for an individual it might be hard to honestly determine between those two states. I'd say for myself there have certainly been times where I _thought_ I wanted to play a video game for several hours but ultimately I understood, based on how I felt afterwards, that is not really what I wanted.
  - maccard 9y ago
    It can be on a day to day basis, but if it’s a chronic thing, it’s usually (in retrospect, of course) easy to differentiate. Person 1 goes home every night after work and feels like they want o watch TV, so they do, every day for a year. Person 2 goes home every night and feels the same, however they meet friends/go to the gym/read a book/_something_ different once or twice a week. There’s a world of difference in retrospect.
  - npsimons 9y ago
    > I _thought_ I wanted to play a video game for several hours but ultimately I understood, based on how I felt afterwards, that is not really what I wanted. This is what I'm talking about. I can spend all day watching Netflix, but in the end I will be much happier if I go climbing, write some code, practice for my next musical performance, or read a book that will help me think better (some good fiction can fit into this category). Some games fit into this category, but not many.
carvalho 9y ago
There is nothing wrong with that, but it is good advice if your goal is to become exceptional. The only way to equal or beat someone naturally talented is to put in many hours. Relaxation is good (but try to combine it with activities that are good for you, like jogging, meditation, or taking a shower/doing a house chore.) While you go out to have drinks with your friends, some stay home and work on research and side projects. One makes you happy, the other makes you more skillfull. It is a lever. I do agree that sometimes it can be better to give up. I spend close to a decade of my life trying to understand the subtleties of a single paper. Now I see the broader picture this was definately a Pyrrhic victory.
- syntaxing 9y ago
  "The only way to equal or beat someone naturally talented is to put in many hours." I totally agree with the sentiment. I work an extra 1-2 hours every day which gives me an additional 260-520 extra hours per year to outperform my peers. However, the older I get, the more I'm starting to think that being exceptional is overrated. Time is arguably the most valuable resource I have. Every extra hour you spend trying to become more skillful is one less hour to "live". The hardest part for me after college was to find this work life balance.
  - SaltyBackendGuy 9y ago
    So much this. I've tried to 'out work' everyone my whole career/life. All that has change recently when I had a baby girl. All we really have is time, so spending it with my daughter has become more of a priority. Instead of grinding tickets on the weekend (obviously if there's a hard deadline then..), my time is spent with my baby. It's so much more rewarding and I am far less stressed all the time. But balance it truly the key.
  - saiya-jin 9y ago
    Outperform for what? Just the feeling of accomplishment? OK I guess, if you require it. For money? Very, very bad strategy (much easier is to simply switch jobs). It is overrated if you work in big corporations, it can be invaluable if you work for yourself/small team, depends. Time and HEALTH are the most invaluable things we have, both are shrinking till we hit 0. Personally, I stopped pursuing latest gimmicks in tech after work, latest frameworks (which would be probably obsolete in couple of years) and one of reasons I don't jump into javascript bandwagon yet. it just feels wrong and like it will pass, hopefully before I need it. If I can learn it during work, cool, otherwise socializing, climbing, adventuring, whatever has always priority. People and experiences. Imagine what amazing experiences and new friends you could have from those 250-500 hours yearly. Logic is simple - right now is the best time of my life, my health won't get magically better, and life will probably bring more problems rather than solve them. I would feel guilty wasting that little time I have by putting in extra hours. So I don't unless its critical.
roughfalls 9y ago
"Knowing when to quit is as important as knowing when not to quit. Hard work does not always pay off." This is the entire subject of Seth Godin's _The Dip_. I'm not a huge fan of this breed of books, but if someone is looking for a lesson on this topic, I would having a look at that book. It's very short -- you can read it in under an hour. It provides a decent mental framework for thinking through the question of whether you should continue on your current path, or quit and switch gears.
- syntaxing 9y ago
  Interesting, I'm going have to look into this book. I think the hardest part for me personally when I'm making my "quitting" decision is that my emotional attachment tends to supersede my logical thinking.
- davehtaylor 9y ago
  Reminds me of a quote I heard a while back, not sure the source, went something to the effect of: "Winners never quit, and quitters never win. But a person who never wins and never quits is a fool."
  - dyarosla 9y ago
    Is that the correct phrasing? It would imply that a fool that never wins and never quits should quit... but if quitters never win this fool would be sure to not win once they've quit.
    - valesco 9y ago
      Sometimes you don't win.
    - s73ver_ 9y ago
      The point is they're not going to win anyway.
    - blensor 9y ago
      Can't resist: "The only winning move is not to play" :) But I guess it means that a winner knows when there is no path to a win and retreats to do something where it is actually possible to win.
cortesoft 9y ago
I tend to think of life balance as finding the right ratio of ‘productive’ hours versus ‘consumptive’ hours. I go to work, clean the house, take care of the kid, and work on side projects during my productive hours, and then relax, watch tv, read books, and play video games during my consumptive hours. All of one or the other is not sustainable. Sometimes I feel like I am doing too much of one or the other, and I try to rebalance.
madengr 9y ago
As an engineer, you are supposed to be a slave to your company. Look up the term Karoshi. Anyway, as a middle aged engineer, my advice is to work your ass off when you are young and save a ton of money. Then you won’t be beholden to your employer.

maccard 9y ago

> and going home to do whatever they want. Regardless if its watching sports or TV all night. There's a difference between wanting to do that, and feeling unable to do anything else. If you _want_ to go home and veg for an evening that's OK, but if you can't do anything else, that's probably not OK.

JohnKacz 9y ago
I would say that for an individual it might be hard to honestly determine between those two states. I'd say for myself there have certainly been times where I _thought_ I wanted to play a video game for several hours but ultimately I understood, based on how I felt afterwards, that is not really what I wanted.
- maccard 9y ago
  It can be on a day to day basis, but if it’s a chronic thing, it’s usually (in retrospect, of course) easy to differentiate. Person 1 goes home every night after work and feels like they want o watch TV, so they do, every day for a year. Person 2 goes home every night and feels the same, however they meet friends/go to the gym/read a book/_something_ different once or twice a week. There’s a world of difference in retrospect.
- npsimons 9y ago
  > I _thought_ I wanted to play a video game for several hours but ultimately I understood, based on how I felt afterwards, that is not really what I wanted. This is what I'm talking about. I can spend all day watching Netflix, but in the end I will be much happier if I go climbing, write some code, practice for my next musical performance, or read a book that will help me think better (some good fiction can fit into this category). Some games fit into this category, but not many.

carvalho 9y ago

There is nothing wrong with that, but it is good advice if your goal is to become exceptional. The only way to equal or beat someone naturally talented is to put in many hours. Relaxation is good (but try to combine it with activities that are good for you, like jogging, meditation, or taking a shower/doing a house chore.) While you go out to have drinks with your friends, some stay home and work on research and side projects. One makes you happy, the other makes you more skillfull. It is a lever. I do agree that sometimes it can be better to give up. I spend close to a decade of my life trying to understand the subtleties of a single paper. Now I see the broader picture this was definately a Pyrrhic victory.

syntaxing 9y ago
"The only way to equal or beat someone naturally talented is to put in many hours." I totally agree with the sentiment. I work an extra 1-2 hours every day which gives me an additional 260-520 extra hours per year to outperform my peers. However, the older I get, the more I'm starting to think that being exceptional is overrated. Time is arguably the most valuable resource I have. Every extra hour you spend trying to become more skillful is one less hour to "live". The hardest part for me after college was to find this work life balance.
- SaltyBackendGuy 9y ago
  So much this. I've tried to 'out work' everyone my whole career/life. All that has change recently when I had a baby girl. All we really have is time, so spending it with my daughter has become more of a priority. Instead of grinding tickets on the weekend (obviously if there's a hard deadline then..), my time is spent with my baby. It's so much more rewarding and I am far less stressed all the time. But balance it truly the key.
- saiya-jin 9y ago
  Outperform for what? Just the feeling of accomplishment? OK I guess, if you require it. For money? Very, very bad strategy (much easier is to simply switch jobs). It is overrated if you work in big corporations, it can be invaluable if you work for yourself/small team, depends. Time and HEALTH are the most invaluable things we have, both are shrinking till we hit 0. Personally, I stopped pursuing latest gimmicks in tech after work, latest frameworks (which would be probably obsolete in couple of years) and one of reasons I don't jump into javascript bandwagon yet. it just feels wrong and like it will pass, hopefully before I need it. If I can learn it during work, cool, otherwise socializing, climbing, adventuring, whatever has always priority. People and experiences. Imagine what amazing experiences and new friends you could have from those 250-500 hours yearly. Logic is simple - right now is the best time of my life, my health won't get magically better, and life will probably bring more problems rather than solve them. I would feel guilty wasting that little time I have by putting in extra hours. So I don't unless its critical.

roughfalls 9y ago

"Knowing when to quit is as important as knowing when not to quit. Hard work does not always pay off." This is the entire subject of Seth Godin's _The Dip_. I'm not a huge fan of this breed of books, but if someone is looking for a lesson on this topic, I would having a look at that book. It's very short -- you can read it in under an hour. It provides a decent mental framework for thinking through the question of whether you should continue on your current path, or quit and switch gears.

syntaxing 9y ago
Interesting, I'm going have to look into this book. I think the hardest part for me personally when I'm making my "quitting" decision is that my emotional attachment tends to supersede my logical thinking.
davehtaylor 9y ago
Reminds me of a quote I heard a while back, not sure the source, went something to the effect of: "Winners never quit, and quitters never win. But a person who never wins and never quits is a fool."
- dyarosla 9y ago
  Is that the correct phrasing? It would imply that a fool that never wins and never quits should quit... but if quitters never win this fool would be sure to not win once they've quit.
  - valesco 9y ago
    Sometimes you don't win.
  - s73ver_ 9y ago
    The point is they're not going to win anyway.
  - blensor 9y ago
    Can't resist: "The only winning move is not to play" :) But I guess it means that a winner knows when there is no path to a win and retreats to do something where it is actually possible to win.

cortesoft 9y ago

I tend to think of life balance as finding the right ratio of ‘productive’ hours versus ‘consumptive’ hours. I go to work, clean the house, take care of the kid, and work on side projects during my productive hours, and then relax, watch tv, read books, and play video games during my consumptive hours. All of one or the other is not sustainable. Sometimes I feel like I am doing too much of one or the other, and I try to rebalance.

madengr 9y ago

As an engineer, you are supposed to be a slave to your company. Look up the term Karoshi. Anyway, as a middle aged engineer, my advice is to work your ass off when you are young and save a ton of money. Then you won’t be beholden to your employer.