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Reminds me of the fishermen story, actually. - http://paulocoelhoblog.com/2015/09/04/the-fisherman-and-the-businessman/ http://paulocoelhoblog.com/2015/09/04/t

Reminds me of the fishermen story, actually. - http://paulocoelhoblog.com/2015/09/04/the-fisherman-and-the-businessman/ http://paulocoelhoblog.com/2015/09/04/the-fisherman-and-the-...

wastedhours 9y ago
I love that tale, and try and bring it up when people talk about success and happiness. I also question this as well "We believe there’s a straight line from where you are to where you want to be." - ultimately most of the reasons I've quit something is because of not thinking like this. Usually I'm an optimist around most endeavours in life, but giving up on something is usually because I perceive the path to be even more winding and hard than it could actually be, not because I thought it was easy and was surprised. Quitting, in a number of instances, is the logical choice.
inanutshellus 9y ago
I struggle with "carpe diem" ... (as I suppose we all must) I want the simple life with the friends and the guitar around the fire ... but in this individualistic society I need to be able to feed, clothe, and house myself and those in my care until I fall over dead. Which is, incidentally, long after I'm capable of doing those things aaaaaand raise my kids to give them the best chance of doing the same. Carpe diem alternately seems like a beautiful dream or offensively irresponsible foolishness. I must be the ant... so that those in my care may be the grasshopper.
- ashark 9y ago
  > aaaaaand raise my kids to give them the best chance of doing the same. There's the tough part. Money buys houses in good school districts (or a spot in a private school) which buys fewer highly-disruptive peers, a much better worst-probable-outcome for available peer groups, and a safer (=less stressful) environment. It's hard to live on the cheap housing-wise with kids, since housing costs are a proxy for school/peer quality, and housing's a big percentage of one's spending. Plus it's harder to find housing in good school districts with enough space for more than ~1 kid in car-free commuting range of business districts in most cities, et c., et c. Harder to achieve that paid-off house which is so very important to early retirement. Plus, you've really got to maintain decent health insurance, which in the US means steady employment with a somewhat stable company. Then you're both working because you need that money to cover the higher priced housing without risking rapid homelessness in the case of a layoff, but now whichever of you's lower-paid and might otherwise stay home is probably working around or below minimum wage, effectively, because child care is so damn expensive. Whole thing seems like a trap designed to eat all your money. Having three kids took us from "will probably retire very comfortably by age 50, without even having to try that hard" to "will very likely never retire".
  - datawarrior 9y ago
    > Money buys houses in good school districts (or a spot in a private school) which buys fewer highly-disruptive peers, a much better worst-probable-outcome for available peer groups, and a safer (=less stressful) environment I think this might be a myth. This is anecdotal but my experience is that the "rich kids" have just as many problems as the poor ones. They just receive less scrutiny unless they are public figures. I grew up in a middle class area outside SV. The supposedly rich kids were often just as messed up as the poor ones. Its like the stereotypical "Preachers Kid."
    - vkou 9y ago
      They may have 'as many problems' as the poor ones, but there's a particular category of poverty, where you aren't getting three meals a day, and half the time your parent figure's home, they are abusive, drunk, high, or in withdrawal from their poison of choice. Or in the best case, just not present. It doesn't matter how good the school is, if the home environment is a living hell.
    - ryandrake 9y ago
      If you have kids, the difference between middle-class and "suboptimal" neighborhoods is stark. It's the difference between your kids having a normal, if not bland, suburban walk/drive to a decent school vs. them dodging bullets and stepping over junkies on their way to a gang-controlled school that's 95% English learners.
    - ashark 9y ago
      It's no myth that kids in the poor schools around here are surrounded by peers who generate frequent school-wide lockdowns over (often realized) fears of significant violence, disregard authority and the importance of school to the point of cursing at and threatening teachers all the time (I'm talking lower elementary school kids here, not high school) and often, eventually, end up on the wrong side of the law. Kids in middle class and higher schools aren't dealing with that crap. In legitimately upper-middle-class (professional class, if you prefer) schools there's additionally peer pressure to do crazy stuff like study for the SAT outside of just the super-nerd clique, which, by that age, is vastly more effective than anything a parent would do to encourage that kind of thing. Norms and expectations among one's peers in school are, as I understand it, so hugely important that they overshadow most other factors in education (aside from basic home-life stability stuff, like not being abused and having food).
vkou 9y ago
Unfortunately, there's a second part to the Fisherman's story. This, less-happy ending is thanks to the efforts of someone who didn't quit when it got hard. > Sensing skepticism from the fisherman, the businessman moves onto the next boat and finds a more receptive fisherman. The two, sensing an obvious business opportunity, decide to go into business together. They raise a venture capital round and a year later, return to the pier outfitted with a dozen high tech fishing boats. > Immediately, the price of tuna at the pier drops threefold with increased supply, forcing the young Mexican fisherman to increase his hours at sea just to maintain his existing standard of living. > Shortly thereafter, all of the shallow water tuna have been caught and the young Mexican fisherman discovers his tiny boat is incapable of deep water fishing. Because of his limited savings, he does not have enough capital to invest in a deep water fishing boat and he is forced to sell his tiny fishing boat for pennies on the dollar as scrap because advances in technology have made it obsolete. > After discovering that there is limited demand for an employee whose only skills are watching ballgames, playing the guitar and taking siestas, the young Mexican fisherman finds his only option is to take a job working minimum wage on one of the businessman’s fishing vessels. > Several years later, the fisherman’s joints are shot through from the hard manual labor of operating on a commercial fishing vessel and an ill timed lift of a 150lb pallet of tuna finally causes his back to give way, causing permanent crippling. The fisherman discovers intensive lobbying from the businessman has weakened workplace protection rules and the fisherman is summarily let go with only a paltry settlement. > After years of expensive medical treatments and crippling bills, the fisherman is finally forced to sell his land, passed along to him from generation to generation, to a development conglomerate run by the businessman who is buying large tracts of the entire village. > Unbeknownst to the fisherman, the businessman has lobbied for the village to turn into a protected nature reserve, allowing for the rehabilitation of the environment and the restocking of fish in it’s pristine waters. The businessman painstakingly recreates the quaint, costal charm of the village he once visited, making it a paradise where the wealthy flock to when they want to retire into a life of easy indolence. > Finally, 15 – 20 years after the original conversation, the fisherman and his wife are found dead in a homeless shelter. Meanwhile, the businessman retires to the village having made two successive fortunes first in fisheries and then in real estate development. He spends his days sleeping late, playing with his grandchildren, watching high def ESPN ballgames on a 70″ TV, and taking siesta with his wife. He occasionally strolls down to the village in the evenings where he regales his fellow millionaires with the story of how he found an unexploited niche in the marketplace and then took full advantage of it to make the fortune that got him to the comfortable retirement he enjoys today.

Reminds me of the fishermen story, actually. - http://paulocoelhoblog.com/2015/09/04/the-fisherman-and-the-businessman/ http://paulocoelhoblog.com/2015/09/04/the-fisherman-and-the-...

wastedhours 9y ago

I love that tale, and try and bring it up when people talk about success and happiness. I also question this as well "We believe there’s a straight line from where you are to where you want to be." - ultimately most of the reasons I've quit something is because of not thinking like this. Usually I'm an optimist around most endeavours in life, but giving up on something is usually because I perceive the path to be even more winding and hard than it could actually be, not because I thought it was easy and was surprised. Quitting, in a number of instances, is the logical choice.

inanutshellus 9y ago

I struggle with "carpe diem" ... (as I suppose we all must) I want the simple life with the friends and the guitar around the fire ... but in this individualistic society I need to be able to feed, clothe, and house myself and those in my care until I fall over dead. Which is, incidentally, long after I'm capable of doing those things aaaaaand raise my kids to give them the best chance of doing the same. Carpe diem alternately seems like a beautiful dream or offensively irresponsible foolishness. I must be the ant... so that those in my care may be the grasshopper.

ashark 9y ago
> aaaaaand raise my kids to give them the best chance of doing the same. There's the tough part. Money buys houses in good school districts (or a spot in a private school) which buys fewer highly-disruptive peers, a much better worst-probable-outcome for available peer groups, and a safer (=less stressful) environment. It's hard to live on the cheap housing-wise with kids, since housing costs are a proxy for school/peer quality, and housing's a big percentage of one's spending. Plus it's harder to find housing in good school districts with enough space for more than ~1 kid in car-free commuting range of business districts in most cities, et c., et c. Harder to achieve that paid-off house which is so very important to early retirement. Plus, you've really got to maintain decent health insurance, which in the US means steady employment with a somewhat stable company. Then you're both working because you need that money to cover the higher priced housing without risking rapid homelessness in the case of a layoff, but now whichever of you's lower-paid and might otherwise stay home is probably working around or below minimum wage, effectively, because child care is so damn expensive. Whole thing seems like a trap designed to eat all your money. Having three kids took us from "will probably retire very comfortably by age 50, without even having to try that hard" to "will very likely never retire".
- datawarrior 9y ago
  > Money buys houses in good school districts (or a spot in a private school) which buys fewer highly-disruptive peers, a much better worst-probable-outcome for available peer groups, and a safer (=less stressful) environment I think this might be a myth. This is anecdotal but my experience is that the "rich kids" have just as many problems as the poor ones. They just receive less scrutiny unless they are public figures. I grew up in a middle class area outside SV. The supposedly rich kids were often just as messed up as the poor ones. Its like the stereotypical "Preachers Kid."
  - vkou 9y ago
    They may have 'as many problems' as the poor ones, but there's a particular category of poverty, where you aren't getting three meals a day, and half the time your parent figure's home, they are abusive, drunk, high, or in withdrawal from their poison of choice. Or in the best case, just not present. It doesn't matter how good the school is, if the home environment is a living hell.
  - ryandrake 9y ago
    If you have kids, the difference between middle-class and "suboptimal" neighborhoods is stark. It's the difference between your kids having a normal, if not bland, suburban walk/drive to a decent school vs. them dodging bullets and stepping over junkies on their way to a gang-controlled school that's 95% English learners.
  - ashark 9y ago
    It's no myth that kids in the poor schools around here are surrounded by peers who generate frequent school-wide lockdowns over (often realized) fears of significant violence, disregard authority and the importance of school to the point of cursing at and threatening teachers all the time (I'm talking lower elementary school kids here, not high school) and often, eventually, end up on the wrong side of the law. Kids in middle class and higher schools aren't dealing with that crap. In legitimately upper-middle-class (professional class, if you prefer) schools there's additionally peer pressure to do crazy stuff like study for the SAT outside of just the super-nerd clique, which, by that age, is vastly more effective than anything a parent would do to encourage that kind of thing. Norms and expectations among one's peers in school are, as I understand it, so hugely important that they overshadow most other factors in education (aside from basic home-life stability stuff, like not being abused and having food).

vkou 9y ago

Unfortunately, there's a second part to the Fisherman's story. This, less-happy ending is thanks to the efforts of someone who didn't quit when it got hard. > Sensing skepticism from the fisherman, the businessman moves onto the next boat and finds a more receptive fisherman. The two, sensing an obvious business opportunity, decide to go into business together. They raise a venture capital round and a year later, return to the pier outfitted with a dozen high tech fishing boats. > Immediately, the price of tuna at the pier drops threefold with increased supply, forcing the young Mexican fisherman to increase his hours at sea just to maintain his existing standard of living. > Shortly thereafter, all of the shallow water tuna have been caught and the young Mexican fisherman discovers his tiny boat is incapable of deep water fishing. Because of his limited savings, he does not have enough capital to invest in a deep water fishing boat and he is forced to sell his tiny fishing boat for pennies on the dollar as scrap because advances in technology have made it obsolete. > After discovering that there is limited demand for an employee whose only skills are watching ballgames, playing the guitar and taking siestas, the young Mexican fisherman finds his only option is to take a job working minimum wage on one of the businessman’s fishing vessels. > Several years later, the fisherman’s joints are shot through from the hard manual labor of operating on a commercial fishing vessel and an ill timed lift of a 150lb pallet of tuna finally causes his back to give way, causing permanent crippling. The fisherman discovers intensive lobbying from the businessman has weakened workplace protection rules and the fisherman is summarily let go with only a paltry settlement. > After years of expensive medical treatments and crippling bills, the fisherman is finally forced to sell his land, passed along to him from generation to generation, to a development conglomerate run by the businessman who is buying large tracts of the entire village. > Unbeknownst to the fisherman, the businessman has lobbied for the village to turn into a protected nature reserve, allowing for the rehabilitation of the environment and the restocking of fish in it’s pristine waters. The businessman painstakingly recreates the quaint, costal charm of the village he once visited, making it a paradise where the wealthy flock to when they want to retire into a life of easy indolence. > Finally, 15 – 20 years after the original conversation, the fisherman and his wife are found dead in a homeless shelter. Meanwhile, the businessman retires to the village having made two successive fortunes first in fisheries and then in real estate development. He spends his days sleeping late, playing with his grandchildren, watching high def ESPN ballgames on a 70″ TV, and taking siesta with his wife. He occasionally strolls down to the village in the evenings where he regales his fellow millionaires with the story of how he found an unexploited niche in the marketplace and then took full advantage of it to make the fortune that got him to the comfortable retirement he enjoys today.