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One of the unintended consequence that just occurred to me is trying to game the system with the number of children to secure the greatest total income. This co

One of the unintended consequence that just occurred to me is trying to game the system with the number of children to secure the greatest total income. This could lead to unsustainable (not that we know if our current population size is sustainable) population growth/explosion. To combat such gaming, the UBI may need to phase out payments beyond replacement rate until they reach 18 or something like that.

eesmith 9y ago
Your observation which just occurred to you has been a long-time bugbear of the conservative tabloid "Daily Mail" and at least some Tories. Here's an article combining the two: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2364718/No-benefit-child-youre-dole-Tories-unveil-controversial-welfare-plan.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2364718/No-benefit-c... . My view is that people don't want to simply maximize income, otherwise everyone would have two or three jobs and no free time. And taking care of children sometimes feels like having an extra job. I think the Daily Mail, etc. view comes from the idea that the poor are poor simply because they are a bad type of person, and not because of, say, structural inequalities or class oppression. Bear also in mind that those countries with a level high amount of social services (long paternity leave, free day care, subsidies for children, etc.) tend also to have low rates of childbirth. Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_rate#Coercive_population_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_rate#Coercive_population... : > In many countries, the steady decline in birth rates over the past decades can be greatly attributed to the significant gains in women's freedoms, such as tackling the phenomenon of forced marriage and child marriage, education for women and increased socioeconomic opportunities. Women of all economic, social, religious and educational persuasions are choosing to have less children as they are gaining more control over their own reproductive rights. Apart from more children living into their adult years, women are often more ambitious to take up work, education and living their own lives rather than just a life of reproduction.[45] Birth rates in third world countries have fallen due to the introduction of family planning clinics.
- sologoub 9y ago
  The low rates are from incumbent majority populations, as things you describe tend to also come with a much better treatment of women and significantly increased use of contraception. My comment was not meant to vilify a family that would choose to have more kids as the result of UBI, but more to indicate that it could be a rational choice for some. With full time work, it's often hard to raise one child, but if all you are obligated to do is care for the children and everything else is flexible, it is rational to consider that many families will choose 2 instead of 1, 3 instead of 2 and so on. This choice is irrespective of the income braket, btw. End result could still be a disaster for our ecology.
  - eesmith 9y ago
    I'm sorry to sound disrespectful, but I find it hard to believe that within an hour you did the research to go from "I just thought of X" to being able to make large-scale statements like "The low rates are from incumbent majority populations". Do you have references that support your statement? Especially as the reference I gave concerned people on the dole in England, most of whom are members of the "incumbent majority population". "This choice is irrespective of the income braket" Yet if you look at rich people, with more than enough income to hire nannies, au pairs, and the like, and who don't need to work at all, you still don't see them as a group having more children.
    - sologoub 9y ago
      Relationship between furtility rates and condition of women is very well documented and something I studied in advanced Econ classes in university. Google would be a good source for that. Here's one example of a paper on the subject: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/padr.12037/full#padr12037-tbl3-note-0001 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/padr.12037/full#p... "Immigrants from Pakistan and Bangladesh in the UK and immigrants from Turkey in France, Belgium, and Germany have significantly higher first birth rates than most other population subgroups, which is expected given that they arrived in Europe from high-fertility societies." Note that there is a decaying towards the national average with each successive generation. Please show statistics that demonstrate that the ultra wealthy do not have more children than the national average.

eesmith 9y ago

Your observation which just occurred to you has been a long-time bugbear of the conservative tabloid "Daily Mail" and at least some Tories. Here's an article combining the two: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2364718/No-benefit-child-youre-dole-Tories-unveil-controversial-welfare-plan.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2364718/No-benefit-c... . My view is that people don't want to simply maximize income, otherwise everyone would have two or three jobs and no free time. And taking care of children sometimes feels like having an extra job. I think the Daily Mail, etc. view comes from the idea that the poor are poor simply because they are a bad type of person, and not because of, say, structural inequalities or class oppression. Bear also in mind that those countries with a level high amount of social services (long paternity leave, free day care, subsidies for children, etc.) tend also to have low rates of childbirth. Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_rate#Coercive_population_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_rate#Coercive_population... : > In many countries, the steady decline in birth rates over the past decades can be greatly attributed to the significant gains in women's freedoms, such as tackling the phenomenon of forced marriage and child marriage, education for women and increased socioeconomic opportunities. Women of all economic, social, religious and educational persuasions are choosing to have less children as they are gaining more control over their own reproductive rights. Apart from more children living into their adult years, women are often more ambitious to take up work, education and living their own lives rather than just a life of reproduction.[45] Birth rates in third world countries have fallen due to the introduction of family planning clinics.

sologoub 9y ago
The low rates are from incumbent majority populations, as things you describe tend to also come with a much better treatment of women and significantly increased use of contraception. My comment was not meant to vilify a family that would choose to have more kids as the result of UBI, but more to indicate that it could be a rational choice for some. With full time work, it's often hard to raise one child, but if all you are obligated to do is care for the children and everything else is flexible, it is rational to consider that many families will choose 2 instead of 1, 3 instead of 2 and so on. This choice is irrespective of the income braket, btw. End result could still be a disaster for our ecology.
- eesmith 9y ago
  I'm sorry to sound disrespectful, but I find it hard to believe that within an hour you did the research to go from "I just thought of X" to being able to make large-scale statements like "The low rates are from incumbent majority populations". Do you have references that support your statement? Especially as the reference I gave concerned people on the dole in England, most of whom are members of the "incumbent majority population". "This choice is irrespective of the income braket" Yet if you look at rich people, with more than enough income to hire nannies, au pairs, and the like, and who don't need to work at all, you still don't see them as a group having more children.
  - sologoub 9y ago
    Relationship between furtility rates and condition of women is very well documented and something I studied in advanced Econ classes in university. Google would be a good source for that. Here's one example of a paper on the subject: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/padr.12037/full#padr12037-tbl3-note-0001 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/padr.12037/full#p... "Immigrants from Pakistan and Bangladesh in the UK and immigrants from Turkey in France, Belgium, and Germany have significantly higher first birth rates than most other population subgroups, which is expected given that they arrived in Europe from high-fertility societies." Note that there is a decaying towards the national average with each successive generation. Please show statistics that demonstrate that the ultra wealthy do not have more children than the national average.