4 ms·

That's an awful shame. I can't really see myself using this when authoring websites as long as it has that behaviour. If I am authoring a Norwegian web site, th

by maggit 9y ago

That's an awful shame. I can't really see myself using this when authoring websites as long as it has that behaviour. If I am authoring a Norwegian web site, the date format must be Norwegian, regardless of the user's preferred locale.

alkonaut 9y ago
I can see how customizable locale/formatting would be important, but would it really matter if a US visitor to the Norwegian website saw a mm/dd/yyyy date instead of the yyyy-mm-dd that would be shown to those with norwegian locale? The important thing seems to be that the user understands the format. This is client side rendering after all.
- maggit 9y ago
  It is important that a Norwegian visitor with a browser configured to prefer en-US [1] would see the entire web page in the same locale. Why should _parts_ of the web page localize to a different locale than other parts? The standard Norwegian date format is DD.MM.YYYY, _easily_ confused with MM/DD/YYYY. Why is it a feature to include this confusion? [1]: This is pretty common, either deliberately or by accident. If you actually want to serve content localized in multiple ways (eg. you want to serve both an English and a Norwegian version) you have to sidestep browser localization anyway and offer the user a way to select which version they want.
  - alkonaut 9y ago
    > It is important that a Norwegian visitor with a browser configured to prefer en-US [1] would see the entire web page in the same locale. Why should _parts_ of the web page localize to a different locale than other parts? Completely agree - that should not happen. Consistency is most important. So if a Norwegian user has an en-US browser and the rendering uses this control which uses default browser locale then all date rendering in all markup has to be en-US. That is: this control can't be used on a web site unless the site already uses browser locale for all date input and output. If the web page already has custom date formatting (e.g. the user chooses locale/format in the site preferences) or if the page has elements rendererd DD.MM.YYYY already from the back end - then this control can't be used. (Also: TIL Norway doesn't use ISO 8601 like Sweden. I honestly thought ISO 8601 was norm in Europe, but apparently mostly in Sweden).
    - 1wd 9y ago
      According to [1] Sweden uses SS-ISO 8601 and Norway uses NS-ISO 8601. According to [2]: "All members of CEN[3] (all of Western Europe and Scandinavia, and most of Eastern Europe) are required to adopt the EN 28601 European Standard. Most have now done so" It's not obvious what this really means though. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Related_standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Related_standards [2] http://www.qsl.net/g1smd/isoimp.htm http://www.qsl.net/g1smd/isoimp.htm [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Committee_for_Standardization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Committee_for_Standar...
      - alkonaut 9y ago
        I think [1] only covers how ISO is used in norway. I think if you look at what's actually common you'll find that norwegians use the non-ISO dd.MM.yy most of the time, but when they use ISO they use ISO as in [1] above. That's the difference to sweden, we'd actually us an ISO 8601 type format as our everyday format.
  - kyberias 9y ago
    You're confusing language and locale and that's going to be equally confusing to your users. I read web content in several languages and expect date formats in ALL applications my application to follow my OS locale which is Finnish. My Windows operating system is in English, yet my locale is Finnish, so that the date format is Finnish. This is the standard way of using locales. Why would web sites be any different?
nkristoffersen 9y ago
I build interfaces for Norwegian web applications pretty often. Why must the date format be Norwegian? Obviously this is just the form field, you shouldn't actually store the data as displayed. I typically store UTC/ISO strings for all dates, but in this case I would store it in whatever format I needed (such as the Norwegian format), regardless of what the format was on the form. Never trust client-side, right?
- robin_reala 9y ago
  The form is submitted with ISO 8601 dates, it’s just the UI that localises.
- maggit 9y ago
  > Why must the date format be Norwegian? Otherwise the page isn't in Norwegian. This is a UX question only.
- NetMonkey 9y ago
  I build Danish self service web applications, and from my perspective I would always want to control that date formats fits the displayed language. Why must it then be in Danish? Because we would rather optimize for Danish users who for some reason have gotten the wrong browser version / localization settings and don't know how to change it. An English speaking user would be much better served with a dedicated English version than just the date format being correct - if they can overcome the language barrier, surely they can overcome the date format.
kyberias 9y ago
That doesn't make much sense. Why would you override USER'S PREFERRED LOCALE just because your website language is something else?
- jeltz 9y ago
  Because all dates in paragraphs and tables will use the Norwegian date format while forms will use the date format of the visitor. Having two date formats on the same page can be very confusing, especially if one is D/M/Y and the other is M/D/Y.
  - kyberias 9y ago
    Well, that kinda makes sense. But you really should render the dates also based in user's browser locale.
    - BrandoElFollito 9y ago
      Our use FEB instead of 02 - this reduces the wondering to zero
ptero 9y ago
> If I am authoring a Norwegian web site, the date format must be Norwegian, regardless of the user's preferred locale. If I understand you correctly, this is something I strongly disagree with. Many people are bilingual if not more, so when I have two tabs from different sites I prefer the dates to be consistent. At least on my Linux machine I want those to be driven by my locale settings, which lets me choose UK English, US English or 50 other conventions if I so desire. I routinely run terminals with different locales set on the same screen and I would like programs started from those not get smart about locale choices but rather do exactly as I ask. Just my poor user 2c.
- maggit 9y ago
  Hm, I think we strongly disagree here. I am bilingual myself, and I strongly prefer each context to be self-consistent. When reading English text I find Norwegian date formatting confusing, and vice versa. I routinely have open tabs in different languages.
  - ptero 9y ago
    Which is OK (so the user should have a choice :) ). Just my personal experience, but seeing dates as "06/07/20XX" always makes me do a double check (is this next week or in a month?) unless I know that I have everything configured my way, which may be different from the way of site designer.
iamphilrae 9y ago
This would be terrible for usability. Allow the user to see the date how they want, then you process the data that’s returned.

by maggit 9y ago

alkonaut 9y ago

I can see how customizable locale/formatting would be important, but would it really matter if a US visitor to the Norwegian website saw a mm/dd/yyyy date instead of the yyyy-mm-dd that would be shown to those with norwegian locale? The important thing seems to be that the user understands the format. This is client side rendering after all.

maggit 9y ago
It is important that a Norwegian visitor with a browser configured to prefer en-US [1] would see the entire web page in the same locale. Why should _parts_ of the web page localize to a different locale than other parts? The standard Norwegian date format is DD.MM.YYYY, _easily_ confused with MM/DD/YYYY. Why is it a feature to include this confusion? [1]: This is pretty common, either deliberately or by accident. If you actually want to serve content localized in multiple ways (eg. you want to serve both an English and a Norwegian version) you have to sidestep browser localization anyway and offer the user a way to select which version they want.
- alkonaut 9y ago
  > It is important that a Norwegian visitor with a browser configured to prefer en-US [1] would see the entire web page in the same locale. Why should _parts_ of the web page localize to a different locale than other parts? Completely agree - that should not happen. Consistency is most important. So if a Norwegian user has an en-US browser and the rendering uses this control which uses default browser locale then all date rendering in all markup has to be en-US. That is: this control can't be used on a web site unless the site already uses browser locale for all date input and output. If the web page already has custom date formatting (e.g. the user chooses locale/format in the site preferences) or if the page has elements rendererd DD.MM.YYYY already from the back end - then this control can't be used. (Also: TIL Norway doesn't use ISO 8601 like Sweden. I honestly thought ISO 8601 was norm in Europe, but apparently mostly in Sweden).
  - 1wd 9y ago
    According to [1] Sweden uses SS-ISO 8601 and Norway uses NS-ISO 8601. According to [2]: "All members of CEN[3] (all of Western Europe and Scandinavia, and most of Eastern Europe) are required to adopt the EN 28601 European Standard. Most have now done so" It's not obvious what this really means though. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Related_standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Related_standards [2] http://www.qsl.net/g1smd/isoimp.htm http://www.qsl.net/g1smd/isoimp.htm [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Committee_for_Standardization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Committee_for_Standar...
    - alkonaut 9y ago
      I think [1] only covers how ISO is used in norway. I think if you look at what's actually common you'll find that norwegians use the non-ISO dd.MM.yy most of the time, but when they use ISO they use ISO as in [1] above. That's the difference to sweden, we'd actually us an ISO 8601 type format as our everyday format.
- kyberias 9y ago
  You're confusing language and locale and that's going to be equally confusing to your users. I read web content in several languages and expect date formats in ALL applications my application to follow my OS locale which is Finnish. My Windows operating system is in English, yet my locale is Finnish, so that the date format is Finnish. This is the standard way of using locales. Why would web sites be any different?

nkristoffersen 9y ago

I build interfaces for Norwegian web applications pretty often. Why must the date format be Norwegian? Obviously this is just the form field, you shouldn't actually store the data as displayed. I typically store UTC/ISO strings for all dates, but in this case I would store it in whatever format I needed (such as the Norwegian format), regardless of what the format was on the form. Never trust client-side, right?

robin_reala 9y ago
The form is submitted with ISO 8601 dates, it’s just the UI that localises.
maggit 9y ago
> Why must the date format be Norwegian? Otherwise the page isn't in Norwegian. This is a UX question only.
NetMonkey 9y ago
I build Danish self service web applications, and from my perspective I would always want to control that date formats fits the displayed language. Why must it then be in Danish? Because we would rather optimize for Danish users who for some reason have gotten the wrong browser version / localization settings and don't know how to change it. An English speaking user would be much better served with a dedicated English version than just the date format being correct - if they can overcome the language barrier, surely they can overcome the date format.

kyberias 9y ago

That doesn't make much sense. Why would you override USER'S PREFERRED LOCALE just because your website language is something else?

jeltz 9y ago
Because all dates in paragraphs and tables will use the Norwegian date format while forms will use the date format of the visitor. Having two date formats on the same page can be very confusing, especially if one is D/M/Y and the other is M/D/Y.
- kyberias 9y ago
  Well, that kinda makes sense. But you really should render the dates also based in user's browser locale.
  - BrandoElFollito 9y ago
    Our use FEB instead of 02 - this reduces the wondering to zero

ptero 9y ago

> If I am authoring a Norwegian web site, the date format must be Norwegian, regardless of the user's preferred locale. If I understand you correctly, this is something I strongly disagree with. Many people are bilingual if not more, so when I have two tabs from different sites I prefer the dates to be consistent. At least on my Linux machine I want those to be driven by my locale settings, which lets me choose UK English, US English or 50 other conventions if I so desire. I routinely run terminals with different locales set on the same screen and I would like programs started from those not get smart about locale choices but rather do exactly as I ask. Just my poor user 2c.

maggit 9y ago
Hm, I think we strongly disagree here. I am bilingual myself, and I strongly prefer each context to be self-consistent. When reading English text I find Norwegian date formatting confusing, and vice versa. I routinely have open tabs in different languages.
- ptero 9y ago
  Which is OK (so the user should have a choice :) ). Just my personal experience, but seeing dates as "06/07/20XX" always makes me do a double check (is this next week or in a month?) unless I know that I have everything configured my way, which may be different from the way of site designer.

iamphilrae 9y ago

This would be terrible for usability. Allow the user to see the date how they want, then you process the data that’s returned.