3 ms·

Venetian here, let me state a few facts about this: 1) The referendum in Veneto was supported by the Venetian section of all major parties, across all the poli

by zakk 9y ago

Venetian here, let me state a few facts about this: 1) The referendum in Veneto was supported by the Venetian section of all major parties, across all the political spectrum. 2) In Italy five regions have a far greater degree of autonomy for historical reasons. Many Comuni (city councils) voted to leave Veneto to join nearby Trentino Alto-Adige just for this far greater autonomy. The proponents of the referendum would like to see more federalism in Italy, e.g. following the German model. 3) Italy is very divided from an economical point of view. Veneto and Lombardy may be easily compared to the richest German industrial districts, whereas the South's economy is not so different from Greece. Taxation in Italy is very high, and a lot of money gets redistributed from the rich North to the poorer South. To make a long story short each citizen from Veneto gives about 5000€ per year to each citizen in the South. Edit: see noisymemories's comment below, often the money is lost in a maze of entities and inefficiency. I perfectly acknowledge a country should redistribute wealth, but many perceive that this redistribution is too high and unfair, and call for a less centralized Italy. 4) Italy is a young country, with 150 years of history, whereas Veneto has millenium-long story as the Serenissima Republic. The Venetian language is widespread alongside Italian, and many (again, across all political spectrum) have stronger ties to the Venetian heritage rather than to the Italian heritage.

bonzini 9y ago
Do you also acknowledge that such redistribution could not happen without a constitutional reform? (More remarks here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15531255 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15531255 - disclaimer, I chose not to vote)
- zakk 9y ago
  Yes, there are many problems, some of which could be solved without a Constitutional reform, some of which would need one, the redistribution being on of these. However, given that five Regions essentially don't engage in such redistribution due to their special status, and given that it is a widespread opinion that this special status is just for historical reasons -- making very little sense today -- I think that a constitutional reform may be on the table soon. The Veneto referendum is a good demonstration that these issues have widespread support from all the political spectrum.
  - bonzini 9y ago
    I honestly doubt. The required supermajority is incredibly hard to achieve, and without it you would need a national referendum with no hope of passing. The referendum might have had widespread _local_ support, but at the country level it's a whole different story. Why didn't Veneto get more autonomy (same as what they want to ask now) when the Lega Nord was part of the national government coalition?
noisymemories 9y ago
I'd love to comment more specifically, but as one of those people from the "poorer South" - by all means, do it. Those 5000€ have historically never been actually routed to the actual regions, anyway - mainly they get lost in a maze of entities and small time orgs that disappear just after they get the money, often with the implicit acknowledgement by politicians of both places. In exchange, I have just one request - please ask your local MPs to stop saving the ass of our corrupted politicians who foster such behavior, instead of giving them parliamentary immunity or "institutional benefit of doubt" every time some anti-corruption or anti-mafia investigation gets them. It would be a nice start.
bl4ckm0r3 9y ago
1) Of course 2) Autonomy doesn't allow the type of independence you are looking for 3) It is very much, and for different reasons, but if your problem is redistribution of wealth on a national level, but not on a local it just means that you feel that southern Italy isn't Italy as much as Veneto is. Which isn't really a great thing in 2017 4) Rome and Naples have longer and definitely more impactful histories. we should be moving toward the future, instead of still grasping toward a few historical myths of the past (la serenissima fell on the 18th century). It really sickens me to see people supporting segregation, separation and justify their ignorance with some historical fact that has no ties to the present. For what I personally care, Veneto and Lombardia could become their own countries, but let's just call things with their names instead of finding silly justifications.
- mk89 9y ago
  The reference to "la serenissima" is simply ludicrous, yet I see more and more often such things (in other countries as well). When people are unhappy with the present (for any possible reason, like being "just average", which is not necessarily a bad thing, among one of them), they look back to the past, to some "glorious times". However, they only look at the most successful moment[s], they never wonder how things built up, how they got lost, etc. It's much easier, because this way you can blame it on someone else, instead of rolling up your sleeves and work to create a (more) decent environment.
  - zakk 9y ago
    This is incredibly offensive and ignorant. I am happy with my present, however I am surrounded by Venetian culture, everywhere around me, from my native Venetian language, to monuments in my city, from food and traditions to street names in the Venetian language. Everywhere around me speaks of my Venetian heritage. Venetian are hard-working people, after WW2 Veneto went from an underdeveloped, rural region to one of the richest regions in Italy, whose per-capita GDP compares with that of the richest German industrial districts. Still, people always felt deeply bound to their Serenissima roots. It’s not a matter of unhappiness or hard times, it’s a matter of a millennial history that pervades the whole region and cannot be denied.
vampolo 9y ago
It might feel empowering demanding taxes to be spent in the richer areas instead of helping poorer areas: Zaia, Governor of Veneto and member of the anti-Europe, anti-Euro, anti-italian nation Lega Nord party, promoted the referendum demanding that "taxes in Veneto should stay here, not helping Sicily". It probably is, at first. But in an economy of different parties, who produces more needs some buyers to keep growing. If there are not enough buyers, overproduction and economical collapse will knock at the door. You can see this trend internationally: we seldom see a country be an outlier in the yearly growth. Either all countries grow, or all countries decline. It is the % that changes. We saw this during the 2008-2012 crisis in particular. It is in the interest of the richest areas to help the poorest. By doing so not only the average quality of life of a country increases. With less economical inequalities between regions, the once poorer regions are buyers of goods of the once richer ones. While you correctly associated Lombardia and Veneto to Germany, you forgot to mention that after the WWII, Germany went split politically and economically. When it got re-united in 1989-1991 East Germany was economically very diverse from the more developed West. Our fathers were wiser: instead of doing referendum demanding taxes to be withheld in the West, they demanded to be taxed to help the East. [source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_reunification#Cost_of_reunification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_reunification#Cost_of_r... ] After 20 years those differences are still somewhat visible, yet they do not constitute a problem for Germany's growth and quality of life as a nation. On the historical side it has been confirmed that 2/3 of the gold resources in Italy came from Regno delle due Sicilie [source: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regno_delle_Due_Sicilie https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regno_delle_Due_Sicilie in Patrimonio e finanza section ]. Those lands are today's most rural parts of Italy, yet contributed the most to the wealth of Italy as a nation. I highly suggest a read on this last historical matter: Terroni by Pino Aprile. You might find a different point of view. [ https://www.amazon.com/Terroni-Ensure-Italians-Became-Southerners/dp/1599540312/ref=pd_cp_14_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1599540312&pd_rd_r=DGDDZTY0ZFZXKZQC75K9&pd_rd_w=QmOlm&pd_rd_wg=9cV19&psc=1&refRID=DGDDZTY0ZFZXKZQC75K9&dpID=41q8nF91sbL&preST=_SY344_BO1,204,203,200_QL70_&dpSrc=detail https://www.amazon.com/Terroni-Ensure-Italians-Became-Southe... ]
- zakk 9y ago
  > It is in the interest of the richest areas to help the poorest. Yes, however one still needs to decide to which extent. Italy helps the poorest areas much more than Germany or the US do. Would a federal model like Germany work better? That's why I said that redistribution is OK in principle, but many feel that in Italy there's just too much of it. > On the historical side it has been confirmed that 2/3 of the gold resources in Italy came from Regno delle due Sicilie Many wrongs were commited in that age, many of which targeted the North, as well. However, if you sum all the subsidies the South has been granted through the years (one among many: Cassa per il Mezzogiorno) that would easily offset those gold resources. Edit: actually is more, Cassa per il Mezzogiorno was given about 140 billions, while 2/3 of Italy's gold resources are worth about 100 billions. One should also keep in mind that Cassa per il Mezzogiorno was active only between 1950 and 1984, and many other subsidies for the South were present before, during and after.

by zakk 9y ago

bonzini 9y ago

Do you also acknowledge that such redistribution could not happen without a constitutional reform? (More remarks here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15531255 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15531255 - disclaimer, I chose not to vote)

zakk 9y ago
Yes, there are many problems, some of which could be solved without a Constitutional reform, some of which would need one, the redistribution being on of these. However, given that five Regions essentially don't engage in such redistribution due to their special status, and given that it is a widespread opinion that this special status is just for historical reasons -- making very little sense today -- I think that a constitutional reform may be on the table soon. The Veneto referendum is a good demonstration that these issues have widespread support from all the political spectrum.
- bonzini 9y ago
  I honestly doubt. The required supermajority is incredibly hard to achieve, and without it you would need a national referendum with no hope of passing. The referendum might have had widespread _local_ support, but at the country level it's a whole different story. Why didn't Veneto get more autonomy (same as what they want to ask now) when the Lega Nord was part of the national government coalition?

noisymemories 9y ago

I'd love to comment more specifically, but as one of those people from the "poorer South" - by all means, do it. Those 5000€ have historically never been actually routed to the actual regions, anyway - mainly they get lost in a maze of entities and small time orgs that disappear just after they get the money, often with the implicit acknowledgement by politicians of both places. In exchange, I have just one request - please ask your local MPs to stop saving the ass of our corrupted politicians who foster such behavior, instead of giving them parliamentary immunity or "institutional benefit of doubt" every time some anti-corruption or anti-mafia investigation gets them. It would be a nice start.

bl4ckm0r3 9y ago

1) Of course 2) Autonomy doesn't allow the type of independence you are looking for 3) It is very much, and for different reasons, but if your problem is redistribution of wealth on a national level, but not on a local it just means that you feel that southern Italy isn't Italy as much as Veneto is. Which isn't really a great thing in 2017 4) Rome and Naples have longer and definitely more impactful histories. we should be moving toward the future, instead of still grasping toward a few historical myths of the past (la serenissima fell on the 18th century). It really sickens me to see people supporting segregation, separation and justify their ignorance with some historical fact that has no ties to the present. For what I personally care, Veneto and Lombardia could become their own countries, but let's just call things with their names instead of finding silly justifications.

mk89 9y ago
The reference to "la serenissima" is simply ludicrous, yet I see more and more often such things (in other countries as well). When people are unhappy with the present (for any possible reason, like being "just average", which is not necessarily a bad thing, among one of them), they look back to the past, to some "glorious times". However, they only look at the most successful moment[s], they never wonder how things built up, how they got lost, etc. It's much easier, because this way you can blame it on someone else, instead of rolling up your sleeves and work to create a (more) decent environment.
- zakk 9y ago
  This is incredibly offensive and ignorant. I am happy with my present, however I am surrounded by Venetian culture, everywhere around me, from my native Venetian language, to monuments in my city, from food and traditions to street names in the Venetian language. Everywhere around me speaks of my Venetian heritage. Venetian are hard-working people, after WW2 Veneto went from an underdeveloped, rural region to one of the richest regions in Italy, whose per-capita GDP compares with that of the richest German industrial districts. Still, people always felt deeply bound to their Serenissima roots. It’s not a matter of unhappiness or hard times, it’s a matter of a millennial history that pervades the whole region and cannot be denied.

vampolo 9y ago

It might feel empowering demanding taxes to be spent in the richer areas instead of helping poorer areas: Zaia, Governor of Veneto and member of the anti-Europe, anti-Euro, anti-italian nation Lega Nord party, promoted the referendum demanding that "taxes in Veneto should stay here, not helping Sicily". It probably is, at first. But in an economy of different parties, who produces more needs some buyers to keep growing. If there are not enough buyers, overproduction and economical collapse will knock at the door. You can see this trend internationally: we seldom see a country be an outlier in the yearly growth. Either all countries grow, or all countries decline. It is the % that changes. We saw this during the 2008-2012 crisis in particular. It is in the interest of the richest areas to help the poorest. By doing so not only the average quality of life of a country increases. With less economical inequalities between regions, the once poorer regions are buyers of goods of the once richer ones. While you correctly associated Lombardia and Veneto to Germany, you forgot to mention that after the WWII, Germany went split politically and economically. When it got re-united in 1989-1991 East Germany was economically very diverse from the more developed West. Our fathers were wiser: instead of doing referendum demanding taxes to be withheld in the West, they demanded to be taxed to help the East. [source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_reunification#Cost_of_reunification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_reunification#Cost_of_r... ] After 20 years those differences are still somewhat visible, yet they do not constitute a problem for Germany's growth and quality of life as a nation. On the historical side it has been confirmed that 2/3 of the gold resources in Italy came from Regno delle due Sicilie [source: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regno_delle_Due_Sicilie https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regno_delle_Due_Sicilie in Patrimonio e finanza section ]. Those lands are today's most rural parts of Italy, yet contributed the most to the wealth of Italy as a nation. I highly suggest a read on this last historical matter: Terroni by Pino Aprile. You might find a different point of view. [ https://www.amazon.com/Terroni-Ensure-Italians-Became-Southerners/dp/1599540312/ref=pd_cp_14_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1599540312&pd_rd_r=DGDDZTY0ZFZXKZQC75K9&pd_rd_w=QmOlm&pd_rd_wg=9cV19&psc=1&refRID=DGDDZTY0ZFZXKZQC75K9&dpID=41q8nF91sbL&preST=_SY344_BO1,204,203,200_QL70_&dpSrc=detail https://www.amazon.com/Terroni-Ensure-Italians-Became-Southe... ]

zakk 9y ago
> It is in the interest of the richest areas to help the poorest. Yes, however one still needs to decide to which extent. Italy helps the poorest areas much more than Germany or the US do. Would a federal model like Germany work better? That's why I said that redistribution is OK in principle, but many feel that in Italy there's just too much of it. > On the historical side it has been confirmed that 2/3 of the gold resources in Italy came from Regno delle due Sicilie Many wrongs were commited in that age, many of which targeted the North, as well. However, if you sum all the subsidies the South has been granted through the years (one among many: Cassa per il Mezzogiorno) that would easily offset those gold resources. Edit: actually is more, Cassa per il Mezzogiorno was given about 140 billions, while 2/3 of Italy's gold resources are worth about 100 billions. One should also keep in mind that Cassa per il Mezzogiorno was active only between 1950 and 1984, and many other subsidies for the South were present before, during and after.