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It’s just funny how the modern nationalist and xenofobe believe they’re “super cool and progressive”. Let’s never forget the horrors of a disassembled Europe,

It’s just funny how the modern nationalist and xenofobe believe they’re “super cool and progressive”. Let’s never forget the horrors of a disassembled Europe, filled with nationalists and xenofobes.

chewz 9y ago
The nationalism started in XIX century by joining multitude of different regions into nation-states then homogenized by central administration, common educations system, military service and propagating 'natural' borders with 'natural' and 'eternal' history. The idea of Europe as collection of semi-autonomic historical regions is complete opposite of nationalism.
raverbashing 9y ago
Sure, because requesting less funds to be send to a central government is now "nationalist and xenophobic" Isn't it funny how for some people "everybody I don't like is a Nazi"? Isn't it funny how "progressives" accept backwards practices and religious crap in name of "diversity"? Then they are "surprised" when Brexit happens, or when there is a rise in antisemitism in certain places or when women's right are curtailed. Gee I wonder why...
dmichulke 9y ago
The biggest horrors of mankind coincide with strong power monopolies, most obvious in dictatorships in big nation states. In other words: - There was rarely a democratic vote on "let's just kill X" with X being a religious, ethnic or whatever group. - There was rarely a small state committing horrible crimes of epic proportions. Partly because they don't have the means, partly because it's easier to flee small states, partly due to other reasons.
- khuey 9y ago
  Pol Pot may not have matched Mao/Stalin/Hitler/etc's death toll but he did kill 25% of Cambodia. The Rwandan genocide wiped out more than half of the Tutsis in the country. Small states are perfectly capable of genocide.
- achamayou 9y ago
  Small states obviously lack the resources but it doesn’t stop them from trying. See North Korea, Cambodia... And if you think democratic small states won’t try to eliminate socially undesirable citizens, look at the history of eugenics in Switzerland. I don’t think you are necessarily wrong, but there are definitely counter examples.
zakk 9y ago
> nationalist and xenofobe You are absolutely wrong. The referendum was supported by the Venetian sections of all major parties, including PD (Partito Democratico, Italian main centre-left party).
vixen99 9y ago
'Super cool and progressive'? To whom do you attribute those words? Actually it's your trivialization of serious issues. It would be more constructive to examine somewhat more dispassionately why it is that so many disparate groups across Europe are concerned and unhappy with the status quo.
coldtea 9y ago
Contrary to popular misinformation, nation states are more modern than multi-nation empires -- they are in fact a product of the Enlightenment and the french revolution. We had the former with asian and hellenistic kingdoms, Rome, etc, all the way to the 19th century. >Let’s never forget the horrors of a disassembled Europe, filled with nationalists and xenofobes You might only remember WWI and WWII, but Europe was shedding blood in wars for near 1000 years, for the most part because of a lack of nation states -- kingdoms, empires and feudal overlords fought for control, while masses fought to secede and establish free of control nation states that they could govern according to their preferences. That's how the modern democracies were established. As for WWI and WWII, those were the remnants of fighting for control over the world from imperialist empires -- the opposite of humble nation states. Britain, France, and co were colonial powers, whereas Germany and Italy were feeling left out. Those were the last bursts of those old "empires". When the colonies mostly died and the US took over uncontested primacy over global affairs from old Europe, the tensions in Europe died with the lowered stakes (and of course were revived by the US and USSR in the Cold War and tons of peripheral wars).
rdtsc 9y ago
> Let’s never forget the horrors of a disassembled Europe ... Quite the opposite, let's never forget the horrors of attempted unification of desperate nationalities of Europe under large reichs, socialist utopias, or just the good 'ol imperial expansion. > It’s just funny how the modern nationalist and xenofobe believe they’re “super cool and progressive”. Something tells me people voting for these issues, didn't really care about being looking "super cool" but had other, slightly more nuanced concerns. Also, if the goal is to convince any of them to abandon their positions, mocking them and calling them "xenophobes" will have the exact opposite effect.

chewz 9y ago

The nationalism started in XIX century by joining multitude of different regions into nation-states then homogenized by central administration, common educations system, military service and propagating 'natural' borders with 'natural' and 'eternal' history. The idea of Europe as collection of semi-autonomic historical regions is complete opposite of nationalism.

raverbashing 9y ago

Sure, because requesting less funds to be send to a central government is now "nationalist and xenophobic" Isn't it funny how for some people "everybody I don't like is a Nazi"? Isn't it funny how "progressives" accept backwards practices and religious crap in name of "diversity"? Then they are "surprised" when Brexit happens, or when there is a rise in antisemitism in certain places or when women's right are curtailed. Gee I wonder why...

dmichulke 9y ago

The biggest horrors of mankind coincide with strong power monopolies, most obvious in dictatorships in big nation states. In other words: - There was rarely a democratic vote on "let's just kill X" with X being a religious, ethnic or whatever group. - There was rarely a small state committing horrible crimes of epic proportions. Partly because they don't have the means, partly because it's easier to flee small states, partly due to other reasons.

khuey 9y ago
Pol Pot may not have matched Mao/Stalin/Hitler/etc's death toll but he did kill 25% of Cambodia. The Rwandan genocide wiped out more than half of the Tutsis in the country. Small states are perfectly capable of genocide.
achamayou 9y ago
Small states obviously lack the resources but it doesn’t stop them from trying. See North Korea, Cambodia... And if you think democratic small states won’t try to eliminate socially undesirable citizens, look at the history of eugenics in Switzerland. I don’t think you are necessarily wrong, but there are definitely counter examples.

zakk 9y ago

> nationalist and xenofobe You are absolutely wrong. The referendum was supported by the Venetian sections of all major parties, including PD (Partito Democratico, Italian main centre-left party).

vixen99 9y ago

'Super cool and progressive'? To whom do you attribute those words? Actually it's your trivialization of serious issues. It would be more constructive to examine somewhat more dispassionately why it is that so many disparate groups across Europe are concerned and unhappy with the status quo.

coldtea 9y ago

Contrary to popular misinformation, nation states are more modern than multi-nation empires -- they are in fact a product of the Enlightenment and the french revolution. We had the former with asian and hellenistic kingdoms, Rome, etc, all the way to the 19th century. >Let’s never forget the horrors of a disassembled Europe, filled with nationalists and xenofobes You might only remember WWI and WWII, but Europe was shedding blood in wars for near 1000 years, for the most part because of a lack of nation states -- kingdoms, empires and feudal overlords fought for control, while masses fought to secede and establish free of control nation states that they could govern according to their preferences. That's how the modern democracies were established. As for WWI and WWII, those were the remnants of fighting for control over the world from imperialist empires -- the opposite of humble nation states. Britain, France, and co were colonial powers, whereas Germany and Italy were feeling left out. Those were the last bursts of those old "empires". When the colonies mostly died and the US took over uncontested primacy over global affairs from old Europe, the tensions in Europe died with the lowered stakes (and of course were revived by the US and USSR in the Cold War and tons of peripheral wars).

rdtsc 9y ago

> Let’s never forget the horrors of a disassembled Europe ... Quite the opposite, let's never forget the horrors of attempted unification of desperate nationalities of Europe under large reichs, socialist utopias, or just the good 'ol imperial expansion. > It’s just funny how the modern nationalist and xenofobe believe they’re “super cool and progressive”. Something tells me people voting for these issues, didn't really care about being looking "super cool" but had other, slightly more nuanced concerns. Also, if the goal is to convince any of them to abandon their positions, mocking them and calling them "xenophobes" will have the exact opposite effect.