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Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

34 points by dmichulke 9y ago

salqadri 9y ago
Umm; did they just contradict themselves? "We remain inside the Italian nation with more autonomy while Catalonia wants to become the 29th state of the European Union. We, no. Not for now." - So, they don't want to be seen like Catalonia, yet they say "Not for now" meaning they must be seen as such. I think the whole theory of giving certain regions extra autonomy while expecting that region to forever be part of the unified country has now been completely dumped.
- zakk 9y ago
  > I think the whole theory of giving certain regions extra autonomy while expecting that region to forever be part of the unified country has now been completely dumped. In Italy five regions have a far greater autonomy, for historical reasons. The proponents of the referendum would want something similar for Lombardy and Veneto, and in principle for all regions.
- daurnimator 9y ago
  As far as I see it, they need the threat of independence so that they aren't ignored. "we aren't looking at it now, but if you don't consider our tax proposal, we'll have no choice but to look at independance more seriously"
  - bonzini 9y ago
    It's not a tax proposal, and it's depressing how many people voted thinking it was one. In Lombardy it's about a list of 23 special topics, which the Constitution says are legislated by both State and regions. The Constitution also says that regions can agree with the central government on getting exclusive legislation on some or all of these topics. There was no need even to have a referendum to start the process. And there is no money on the table, but the president of the region kept mentioning "30 billion euros" which reminds me of the NHS and the British referendum. Not coincidentally, the president is running for reelection in 6 months. In Veneto the question was simply "would you like more autonomy" without saying what and how. After voting, the president said it's about the 23 topics plus keeping tax money in Veneto. The latter however would require amending the Constitution, which in turn requires either a 2/3 supermajority in both houses, or a simple majority plus a referendum across all of Italy. It's just not going to happen. Constitutional changes have happened in the past, through either a supermajority or a referendum, but this one has no choice of passing. Regardless, a referendum was unnecessary there too. Both referendums were a huge waste of money, basically amounting to campaigning with public money. They were a farce just like the one in Catalunya, but they were both completely legal and independence from Italy is not on the table anywhere, with the exception of a few nutjobs (equally subdivided among both rich and poor regions). Addendum: Lombardy played with electronic voting; votes from the opposition were needed to do the referendum, because according to the regional statute referendums need a supermajority, and one opposition party agreed to vote on the condition that voting would be electronic. The president kept boasting about how we would have known the results five minutes after closing the ballot (it takes about three hours to do manual counting), yet 10 hours after we do not even know precisely how many people have voted.
    - joeminichino 9y ago
      > yet 10 hours after we do not even know precisely how many people have voted. hehe - and that's why this piece of news is on hacker news.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >I think the whole theory of giving certain regions extra autonomy while expecting that region to forever be part of the unified country has now been completely dumped. And yet, that's exactly how it works in tons of places. Germany, Switzerland, heck, the US... (Also: forever is a long time. Nothing lasts forever. In 100 years the landscape can be totally different).
gfiorav 9y ago
It’s just funny how the modern nationalist and xenofobe believe they’re “super cool and progressive”. Let’s never forget the horrors of a disassembled Europe, filled with nationalists and xenofobes.
- chewz 9y ago
  The nationalism started in XIX century by joining multitude of different regions into nation-states then homogenized by central administration, common educations system, military service and propagating 'natural' borders with 'natural' and 'eternal' history. The idea of Europe as collection of semi-autonomic historical regions is complete opposite of nationalism.
- raverbashing 9y ago
  Sure, because requesting less funds to be send to a central government is now "nationalist and xenophobic" Isn't it funny how for some people "everybody I don't like is a Nazi"? Isn't it funny how "progressives" accept backwards practices and religious crap in name of "diversity"? Then they are "surprised" when Brexit happens, or when there is a rise in antisemitism in certain places or when women's right are curtailed. Gee I wonder why...
- dmichulke 9y ago
  The biggest horrors of mankind coincide with strong power monopolies, most obvious in dictatorships in big nation states. In other words: - There was rarely a democratic vote on "let's just kill X" with X being a religious, ethnic or whatever group. - There was rarely a small state committing horrible crimes of epic proportions. Partly because they don't have the means, partly because it's easier to flee small states, partly due to other reasons.
  - khuey 9y ago
    Pol Pot may not have matched Mao/Stalin/Hitler/etc's death toll but he did kill 25% of Cambodia. The Rwandan genocide wiped out more than half of the Tutsis in the country. Small states are perfectly capable of genocide.
  - 9y ago
zakk 9y ago
Venetian here, let me state a few facts about this: 1) The referendum in Veneto was supported by the Venetian section of all major parties, across all the political spectrum. 2) In Italy five regions have a far greater degree of autonomy for historical reasons. Many Comuni (city councils) voted to leave Veneto to join nearby Trentino Alto-Adige just for this far greater autonomy. The proponents of the referendum would like to see more federalism in Italy, e.g. following the German model. 3) Italy is very divided from an economical point of view. Veneto and Lombardy may be easily compared to the richest German industrial districts, whereas the South's economy is not so different from Greece. Taxation in Italy is very high, and a lot of money gets redistributed from the rich North to the poorer South. To make a long story short each citizen from Veneto gives about 5000€ per year to each citizen in the South. Edit: see noisymemories's comment below, often the money is lost in a maze of entities and inefficiency. I perfectly acknowledge a country should redistribute wealth, but many perceive that this redistribution is too high and unfair, and call for a less centralized Italy. 4) Italy is a young country, with 150 years of history, whereas Veneto has millenium-long story as the Serenissima Republic. The Venetian language is widespread alongside Italian, and many (again, across all political spectrum) have stronger ties to the Venetian heritage rather than to the Italian heritage.
- bonzini 9y ago
  Do you also acknowledge that such redistribution could not happen without a constitutional reform? (More remarks here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15531255 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15531255 - disclaimer, I chose not to vote)
  - zakk 9y ago
    Yes, there are many problems, some of which could be solved without a Constitutional reform, some of which would need one, the redistribution being on of these. However, given that five Regions essentially don't engage in such redistribution due to their special status, and given that it is a widespread opinion that this special status is just for historical reasons -- making very little sense today -- I think that a constitutional reform may be on the table soon. The Veneto referendum is a good demonstration that these issues have widespread support from all the political spectrum.
rumcajz 9y ago
> One of the regions' main complaints is that they send much more in taxes to Rome than they get back in public spending, and want to roughly halve their contribution. This seems to be the common denominator a lot of the independence movements in Europe and, possibly, elsewhere. The desire to keep the profits in urbanized centers while still being able to sell their stuff, without tariffs, elsewhere.
bl4ckm0r3 9y ago
Lombardy voted to have more control regarding immigration and safety, Veneto to change their taxes and have more control in the "residuo fiscale" (what's left of taxes after all the administration costs has been covered). Neither is allowed by the concept of regional autonomy in Italy. Unfortunately, just like any other "independence" request these days, it's just a move to avoid helping poorer states and drawing a thick libe between "us and them". They have been talking about it for years, they just jumped on the latest speedwagon.
- matthewmacleod 9y ago
  Unfortunately, just like any other "independence" request these days, it's just a move to avoid helping poorer states While it’s possible that there’s some of that attitude in Catalonia, I’d point out that the other large, recent European independence movement in Scotland was emphatically not that. Brexit, comparable on some levels, is also different. In reality, the reasons for independence/sescession movements gaining strength is complex and varies from place to place. That description seems a little reductive.
  - bl4ckm0r3 9y ago
    Scotland wanted to leave for economic independence (The national identity, which i respect, is always a political excuse). Brexit "let's get back european money and put them into nhs"?How is that going not the same?Oh the rest was about the immigrants. Catalonia is literally the same, with just more political madness to it. The reason behind all of this is that we are living in a harsh economic era, politics failed in providing a guidance and unity (since a while) and people don't feel empathy towards other side of their countries and blame them for their country defects, as if you could just point the finger to a specific region or group of people to blame them for the economic tragedies and corruption of modern politics.
  - mentallimits 9y ago
    holding on to more of north sea oil revenues has been one of the major motivations for scottish independence.
- 9y ago
mrweasel 9y ago
It fascinating that while our politicians seek ever closer EU integration, the public seems to want more local government.
- zakk 9y ago
  The two options are not mutually exclusive. Think of Germany: each Länder has a great degree of autonomy (similar to what this referendum is asking for Lombardy and Veneto) and still the country as a whole is one of pillars of Europe.
- away2017throw 9y ago
  I think letting in a few million of net consuming random people from outside of EU played its part.

34 points by dmichulke 9y ago

Umm; did they just contradict themselves? "We remain inside the Italian nation with more autonomy while Catalonia wants to become the 29th state of the European Union. We, no. Not for now." - So, they don't want to be seen like Catalonia, yet they say "Not for now" meaning they must be seen as such. I think the whole theory of giving certain regions extra autonomy while expecting that region to forever be part of the unified country has now been completely dumped.

zakk 9y ago
> I think the whole theory of giving certain regions extra autonomy while expecting that region to forever be part of the unified country has now been completely dumped. In Italy five regions have a far greater autonomy, for historical reasons. The proponents of the referendum would want something similar for Lombardy and Veneto, and in principle for all regions.
daurnimator 9y ago
As far as I see it, they need the threat of independence so that they aren't ignored. "we aren't looking at it now, but if you don't consider our tax proposal, we'll have no choice but to look at independance more seriously"
- bonzini 9y ago
  It's not a tax proposal, and it's depressing how many people voted thinking it was one. In Lombardy it's about a list of 23 special topics, which the Constitution says are legislated by both State and regions. The Constitution also says that regions can agree with the central government on getting exclusive legislation on some or all of these topics. There was no need even to have a referendum to start the process. And there is no money on the table, but the president of the region kept mentioning "30 billion euros" which reminds me of the NHS and the British referendum. Not coincidentally, the president is running for reelection in 6 months. In Veneto the question was simply "would you like more autonomy" without saying what and how. After voting, the president said it's about the 23 topics plus keeping tax money in Veneto. The latter however would require amending the Constitution, which in turn requires either a 2/3 supermajority in both houses, or a simple majority plus a referendum across all of Italy. It's just not going to happen. Constitutional changes have happened in the past, through either a supermajority or a referendum, but this one has no choice of passing. Regardless, a referendum was unnecessary there too. Both referendums were a huge waste of money, basically amounting to campaigning with public money. They were a farce just like the one in Catalunya, but they were both completely legal and independence from Italy is not on the table anywhere, with the exception of a few nutjobs (equally subdivided among both rich and poor regions). Addendum: Lombardy played with electronic voting; votes from the opposition were needed to do the referendum, because according to the regional statute referendums need a supermajority, and one opposition party agreed to vote on the condition that voting would be electronic. The president kept boasting about how we would have known the results five minutes after closing the ballot (it takes about three hours to do manual counting), yet 10 hours after we do not even know precisely how many people have voted.
  - joeminichino 9y ago
    > yet 10 hours after we do not even know precisely how many people have voted. hehe - and that's why this piece of news is on hacker news.
coldtea 9y ago
>I think the whole theory of giving certain regions extra autonomy while expecting that region to forever be part of the unified country has now been completely dumped. And yet, that's exactly how it works in tons of places. Germany, Switzerland, heck, the US... (Also: forever is a long time. Nothing lasts forever. In 100 years the landscape can be totally different).

gfiorav 9y ago

It’s just funny how the modern nationalist and xenofobe believe they’re “super cool and progressive”. Let’s never forget the horrors of a disassembled Europe, filled with nationalists and xenofobes.

chewz 9y ago
The nationalism started in XIX century by joining multitude of different regions into nation-states then homogenized by central administration, common educations system, military service and propagating 'natural' borders with 'natural' and 'eternal' history. The idea of Europe as collection of semi-autonomic historical regions is complete opposite of nationalism.
raverbashing 9y ago
Sure, because requesting less funds to be send to a central government is now "nationalist and xenophobic" Isn't it funny how for some people "everybody I don't like is a Nazi"? Isn't it funny how "progressives" accept backwards practices and religious crap in name of "diversity"? Then they are "surprised" when Brexit happens, or when there is a rise in antisemitism in certain places or when women's right are curtailed. Gee I wonder why...
dmichulke 9y ago
The biggest horrors of mankind coincide with strong power monopolies, most obvious in dictatorships in big nation states. In other words: - There was rarely a democratic vote on "let's just kill X" with X being a religious, ethnic or whatever group. - There was rarely a small state committing horrible crimes of epic proportions. Partly because they don't have the means, partly because it's easier to flee small states, partly due to other reasons.
- khuey 9y ago
  Pol Pot may not have matched Mao/Stalin/Hitler/etc's death toll but he did kill 25% of Cambodia. The Rwandan genocide wiped out more than half of the Tutsis in the country. Small states are perfectly capable of genocide.
- 9y ago

zakk 9y ago

Venetian here, let me state a few facts about this: 1) The referendum in Veneto was supported by the Venetian section of all major parties, across all the political spectrum. 2) In Italy five regions have a far greater degree of autonomy for historical reasons. Many Comuni (city councils) voted to leave Veneto to join nearby Trentino Alto-Adige just for this far greater autonomy. The proponents of the referendum would like to see more federalism in Italy, e.g. following the German model. 3) Italy is very divided from an economical point of view. Veneto and Lombardy may be easily compared to the richest German industrial districts, whereas the South's economy is not so different from Greece. Taxation in Italy is very high, and a lot of money gets redistributed from the rich North to the poorer South. To make a long story short each citizen from Veneto gives about 5000€ per year to each citizen in the South. Edit: see noisymemories's comment below, often the money is lost in a maze of entities and inefficiency. I perfectly acknowledge a country should redistribute wealth, but many perceive that this redistribution is too high and unfair, and call for a less centralized Italy. 4) Italy is a young country, with 150 years of history, whereas Veneto has millenium-long story as the Serenissima Republic. The Venetian language is widespread alongside Italian, and many (again, across all political spectrum) have stronger ties to the Venetian heritage rather than to the Italian heritage.

bonzini 9y ago
Do you also acknowledge that such redistribution could not happen without a constitutional reform? (More remarks here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15531255 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15531255 - disclaimer, I chose not to vote)
- zakk 9y ago
  Yes, there are many problems, some of which could be solved without a Constitutional reform, some of which would need one, the redistribution being on of these. However, given that five Regions essentially don't engage in such redistribution due to their special status, and given that it is a widespread opinion that this special status is just for historical reasons -- making very little sense today -- I think that a constitutional reform may be on the table soon. The Veneto referendum is a good demonstration that these issues have widespread support from all the political spectrum.

rumcajz 9y ago

> One of the regions' main complaints is that they send much more in taxes to Rome than they get back in public spending, and want to roughly halve their contribution. This seems to be the common denominator a lot of the independence movements in Europe and, possibly, elsewhere. The desire to keep the profits in urbanized centers while still being able to sell their stuff, without tariffs, elsewhere.

bl4ckm0r3 9y ago

Lombardy voted to have more control regarding immigration and safety, Veneto to change their taxes and have more control in the "residuo fiscale" (what's left of taxes after all the administration costs has been covered). Neither is allowed by the concept of regional autonomy in Italy. Unfortunately, just like any other "independence" request these days, it's just a move to avoid helping poorer states and drawing a thick libe between "us and them". They have been talking about it for years, they just jumped on the latest speedwagon.

matthewmacleod 9y ago
Unfortunately, just like any other "independence" request these days, it's just a move to avoid helping poorer states While it’s possible that there’s some of that attitude in Catalonia, I’d point out that the other large, recent European independence movement in Scotland was emphatically not that. Brexit, comparable on some levels, is also different. In reality, the reasons for independence/sescession movements gaining strength is complex and varies from place to place. That description seems a little reductive.
- bl4ckm0r3 9y ago
  Scotland wanted to leave for economic independence (The national identity, which i respect, is always a political excuse). Brexit "let's get back european money and put them into nhs"?How is that going not the same?Oh the rest was about the immigrants. Catalonia is literally the same, with just more political madness to it. The reason behind all of this is that we are living in a harsh economic era, politics failed in providing a guidance and unity (since a while) and people don't feel empathy towards other side of their countries and blame them for their country defects, as if you could just point the finger to a specific region or group of people to blame them for the economic tragedies and corruption of modern politics.
- mentallimits 9y ago
  holding on to more of north sea oil revenues has been one of the major motivations for scottish independence.
9y ago

mrweasel 9y ago

It fascinating that while our politicians seek ever closer EU integration, the public seems to want more local government.

zakk 9y ago
The two options are not mutually exclusive. Think of Germany: each Länder has a great degree of autonomy (similar to what this referendum is asking for Lombardy and Veneto) and still the country as a whole is one of pillars of Europe.
away2017throw 9y ago
I think letting in a few million of net consuming random people from outside of EU played its part.