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Why are you asking for evidence for my claim, and not the parent's "another possibility"? I'm getting tired of this new fad of dismissing someone's comment by

by vacri 9y ago

Why are you asking for evidence for my claim, and not the parent's "another possibility"? I'm getting tired of this new fad of dismissing someone's comment by demanding evidence for it.

trgv 9y ago
> I doubt that peoples' capacity for willpower has changed, but that the exercise of that capacity has. You say this so matter-of-factly but it's actually quite a claim. I think people are right to call you on it. I understand there is a general feeling that past generations "made do with less" and "had greater moral fiber" and so on, but I'm also a little suspicious of that kind of thinking.
- vacri 9y ago
  Yeah, "I doubt that" is a claim set in concrete that requires support, whereas "A possibility" requires no support for any claim at all. I made no claim about greater moral fiber, but if you think that past generations didn't "make do with less", you're now making an extraordinary against-the-grain claim. So, "give us a citation proving why you should be suspicious of that comment". See how annoying that is?
yorwba 9y ago
Firstly, "another possibility" is just one of multiple options, and no claim was made that it is the right explanation. It only needs to be plausible, and evidence of plausibility is easy to come up with. Secondly, if not trying to to convince someone else, nobody needs evidence for ideas they already believe. But since you were making a strong claim, asking for evidence means giving you the chance to show that you have convincing reasons for your opinion. Of course, if you don't have evidence, that's fine, too. Just don't expect to change anyone's mind.
- vacri 9y ago
  > evidence of plausibility is easy to come up with. Cool, it's easy: then provide some, please. Provide some citations for it rather than just accepting the common knowledge, since common knowledge is often wrong. > asking for evidence means giving you the chance to show that you have convincing reasons for your opinion. No. Asking someone for more information, or asking someone to round out the idea more is giving the chance to show convincing reasons. Asking bluntly for a citational proof is mere dismissal.
  - yorwba 9y ago
    Evidence that "companies have gotten better at hitting people's reward centers to drive more consumption and thus profits" is a plausible explanation: 1. Companies are motivated to increase profits. [1] 2. Increasing consumption is one way to increase profits. [2] 3. Generally applicable techniques for increasing easily measurable business statistics have been developed and improved. [3] 4. Consumption is one such statistic. [4] 5. People are more likely to eat food they enjoy, even if they know it's unhealthy. [5] Thus it is plausible that companies have found ways to increase consumption by "hitting people's reward centers". 6. People get fat when they eat more. [6] Therefore this plausible statement provides an explanation for increased obesity. I hope this is enough evidence for you. Note that I don't think citations are the be all and end all of evidence. They are a useful tool in academic discussion, but in more informal settings, appealing to common knowledge is usually enough, unless it's that common knowledge itself that is under doubt. When you eventually provide evidence for your claim that people exercise their willpower less, I won't require citations for everything. I'd like to see a well-reasoned argument, however. [1] Henry Hazlitt, "Economics in One Lesson", pp. 141: The Function of Profits [2] Elementary mathematics: if you make a certain profit on each item sold and consumed, increased consumption increases profit. [3] e.g. https://www.mv-research.com/research/pricing https://www.mv-research.com/research/pricing [4] If you keep books on your sales, you have already measured it. [5] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278431915000651 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278431915... [6] http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2009/10/14/ajcn.2009.28595.full.pdf http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2009/10/14/ajcn.2009...
    - vacri 9y ago
      So of your 'six' citations, [1] is a book I don't have access to, [2] and [4] aren't citations at all, and [5] and [6] has nothing to say about companies getting better at their thing. It doesn't say much for 'being easy' when you have to pad out your list of six with two non-citations, two irrelevant citations, and a difficult-to-source one. > When you eventually provide evidence for your claim that people exercise their willpower less, I won't require citations for everything. "When I give you evidence, you won't require evidence"? > I hope this is enough evidence for you. It's worth noting that I didn't demand evidence for the original claim; I only demanded it as an illustrative point to people that were demanding it of me.

by vacri 9y ago

Why are you asking for evidence for my claim, and not the parent's "another possibility"? I'm getting tired of this new fad of dismissing someone's comment by demanding evidence for it.

trgv 9y ago

> I doubt that peoples' capacity for willpower has changed, but that the exercise of that capacity has. You say this so matter-of-factly but it's actually quite a claim. I think people are right to call you on it. I understand there is a general feeling that past generations "made do with less" and "had greater moral fiber" and so on, but I'm also a little suspicious of that kind of thinking.

vacri 9y ago
Yeah, "I doubt that" is a claim set in concrete that requires support, whereas "A possibility" requires no support for any claim at all. I made no claim about greater moral fiber, but if you think that past generations didn't "make do with less", you're now making an extraordinary against-the-grain claim. So, "give us a citation proving why you should be suspicious of that comment". See how annoying that is?

yorwba 9y ago

Firstly, "another possibility" is just one of multiple options, and no claim was made that it is the right explanation. It only needs to be plausible, and evidence of plausibility is easy to come up with. Secondly, if not trying to to convince someone else, nobody needs evidence for ideas they already believe. But since you were making a strong claim, asking for evidence means giving you the chance to show that you have convincing reasons for your opinion. Of course, if you don't have evidence, that's fine, too. Just don't expect to change anyone's mind.

vacri 9y ago
> evidence of plausibility is easy to come up with. Cool, it's easy: then provide some, please. Provide some citations for it rather than just accepting the common knowledge, since common knowledge is often wrong. > asking for evidence means giving you the chance to show that you have convincing reasons for your opinion. No. Asking someone for more information, or asking someone to round out the idea more is giving the chance to show convincing reasons. Asking bluntly for a citational proof is mere dismissal.
- yorwba 9y ago
  Evidence that "companies have gotten better at hitting people's reward centers to drive more consumption and thus profits" is a plausible explanation: 1. Companies are motivated to increase profits. [1] 2. Increasing consumption is one way to increase profits. [2] 3. Generally applicable techniques for increasing easily measurable business statistics have been developed and improved. [3] 4. Consumption is one such statistic. [4] 5. People are more likely to eat food they enjoy, even if they know it's unhealthy. [5] Thus it is plausible that companies have found ways to increase consumption by "hitting people's reward centers". 6. People get fat when they eat more. [6] Therefore this plausible statement provides an explanation for increased obesity. I hope this is enough evidence for you. Note that I don't think citations are the be all and end all of evidence. They are a useful tool in academic discussion, but in more informal settings, appealing to common knowledge is usually enough, unless it's that common knowledge itself that is under doubt. When you eventually provide evidence for your claim that people exercise their willpower less, I won't require citations for everything. I'd like to see a well-reasoned argument, however. [1] Henry Hazlitt, "Economics in One Lesson", pp. 141: The Function of Profits [2] Elementary mathematics: if you make a certain profit on each item sold and consumed, increased consumption increases profit. [3] e.g. https://www.mv-research.com/research/pricing https://www.mv-research.com/research/pricing [4] If you keep books on your sales, you have already measured it. [5] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278431915000651 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278431915... [6] http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2009/10/14/ajcn.2009.28595.full.pdf http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2009/10/14/ajcn.2009...
  - vacri 9y ago
    So of your 'six' citations, [1] is a book I don't have access to, [2] and [4] aren't citations at all, and [5] and [6] has nothing to say about companies getting better at their thing. It doesn't say much for 'being easy' when you have to pad out your list of six with two non-citations, two irrelevant citations, and a difficult-to-source one. > When you eventually provide evidence for your claim that people exercise their willpower less, I won't require citations for everything. "When I give you evidence, you won't require evidence"? > I hope this is enough evidence for you. It's worth noting that I didn't demand evidence for the original claim; I only demanded it as an illustrative point to people that were demanding it of me.