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> I doubt people's willpower has changed much over time. I doubt that peoples' capacity for willpower has changed, but that the exercise of that capacity has.

by vacri 9y ago

> I doubt people's willpower has changed much over time. I doubt that peoples' capacity for willpower has changed, but that the exercise of that capacity has. There's a lot less personal discipline than there used to be, across the board, and the less you exercise your personal discipline, the harder it is when you try to.

blt 9y ago
... or maybe not. Parent post's "another possibility" is also a plausible explanation. Your claim is very strong and requires some evidence.
- vacri 9y ago
  Why are you asking for evidence for my claim, and not the parent's "another possibility"? I'm getting tired of this new fad of dismissing someone's comment by demanding evidence for it.
  - trgv 9y ago
    > I doubt that peoples' capacity for willpower has changed, but that the exercise of that capacity has. You say this so matter-of-factly but it's actually quite a claim. I think people are right to call you on it. I understand there is a general feeling that past generations "made do with less" and "had greater moral fiber" and so on, but I'm also a little suspicious of that kind of thinking.
    - vacri 9y ago
      Yeah, "I doubt that" is a claim set in concrete that requires support, whereas "A possibility" requires no support for any claim at all. I made no claim about greater moral fiber, but if you think that past generations didn't "make do with less", you're now making an extraordinary against-the-grain claim. So, "give us a citation proving why you should be suspicious of that comment". See how annoying that is?
  - yorwba 9y ago
    Firstly, "another possibility" is just one of multiple options, and no claim was made that it is the right explanation. It only needs to be plausible, and evidence of plausibility is easy to come up with. Secondly, if not trying to to convince someone else, nobody needs evidence for ideas they already believe. But since you were making a strong claim, asking for evidence means giving you the chance to show that you have convincing reasons for your opinion. Of course, if you don't have evidence, that's fine, too. Just don't expect to change anyone's mind.
    - vacri 9y ago
      > evidence of plausibility is easy to come up with. Cool, it's easy: then provide some, please. Provide some citations for it rather than just accepting the common knowledge, since common knowledge is often wrong. > asking for evidence means giving you the chance to show that you have convincing reasons for your opinion. No. Asking someone for more information, or asking someone to round out the idea more is giving the chance to show convincing reasons. Asking bluntly for a citational proof is mere dismissal.
      - yorwba 9y ago
        Evidence that "companies have gotten better at hitting people's reward centers to drive more consumption and thus profits" is a plausible explanation: 1. Companies are motivated to increase profits. [1] 2. Increasing consumption is one way to increase profits. [2] 3. Generally applicable techniques for increasing easily measurable business statistics have been developed and improved. [3] 4. Consumption is one such statistic. [4] 5. People are more likely to eat food they enjoy, even if they know it's unhealthy. [5] Thus it is plausible that companies have found ways to increase consumption by "hitting people's reward centers". 6. People get fat when they eat more. [6] Therefore this plausible statement provides an explanation for increased obesity. I hope this is enough evidence for you. Note that I don't think citations are the be all and end all of evidence. They are a useful tool in academic discussion, but in more informal settings, appealing to common knowledge is usually enough, unless it's that common knowledge itself that is under doubt. When you eventually provide evidence for your claim that people exercise their willpower less, I won't require citations for everything. I'd like to see a well-reasoned argument, however. [1] Henry Hazlitt, "Economics in One Lesson", pp. 141: The Function of Profits [2] Elementary mathematics: if you make a certain profit on each item sold and consumed, increased consumption increases profit. [3] e.g. https://www.mv-research.com/research/pricing https://www.mv-research.com/research/pricing [4] If you keep books on your sales, you have already measured it. [5] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278431915000651 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278431915... [6] http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2009/10/14/ajcn.2009.28595.full.pdf http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2009/10/14/ajcn.2009...
Retric 9y ago
So, your theory is essentially every culture in every country worldwide has reduced personal discipline? What's the cause of that change? Just to add, being fat takes significantly more calories than being thin. So, you really need a lot of excess food production before large scale obesity is even possible.
- KGIII 9y ago
  If I had to take a stab at it, I'd suggest more immediate gratification and less abject poverty. I have no source and didn't look for one, but those may be causes for less personal discipline. And we do have excess food production. We can feed the whole planet. Food supply isn't the problem, distribution and affordability is the problem. So, that is my purely layman stab at it. I wouldn't even know where to begin doing quality research on this.
- vacri 9y ago
  Jeez, talking about begging the question. No, not 'essentially every culture in every country worldwide' has an obesity problem, so your strawman doesn't even fit.
  - Retric 9y ago
    Worldwide every single country has over 20% of the population is Obese excluding possibility Sudan and South Sudan which lacks data and is in the middle of a war. http://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.A904?lang=en http://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.A904?lang=en India for example seems low by comparison, but the rate is still up more than 20% since 1975. 18.5% for adults in 1975 vs 21.8% in 2016. Even Ethiopia the lowest country in the world is over 20.6 vs 17.7%.
    - vacri 9y ago
      ... and from your link, almost all the countries were over 20% in 1975 as well. Plenty of them have barely changed. > but the rate is still up more than 20% since 1975. 18.5% for adults in 1975 vs 21.8% in 2016 Nitpick: a rise of 20% on that 18.5% would make it 22.2% Edit: I'm also not sure why the 20% marker seems to be your cutoff for "having an obesity problem". Ethiopia's famous famine went from 1983-85, yet their obesity rate for '85 is 18.7%. That seems to be an awful thin line to walk, where 18.7% marks a famine and 20% marks obesity problem. Similarly, the Second Congo War went from 1999 to 2003 and almost 4 million people died, mostly from famine.. yet throughout that, the Democratic Republic of the Congo maintained obesity rates above 20% in your link.

by vacri 9y ago

blt 9y ago

... or maybe not. Parent post's "another possibility" is also a plausible explanation. Your claim is very strong and requires some evidence.

vacri 9y ago
Why are you asking for evidence for my claim, and not the parent's "another possibility"? I'm getting tired of this new fad of dismissing someone's comment by demanding evidence for it.
- trgv 9y ago
  > I doubt that peoples' capacity for willpower has changed, but that the exercise of that capacity has. You say this so matter-of-factly but it's actually quite a claim. I think people are right to call you on it. I understand there is a general feeling that past generations "made do with less" and "had greater moral fiber" and so on, but I'm also a little suspicious of that kind of thinking.
  - vacri 9y ago
    Yeah, "I doubt that" is a claim set in concrete that requires support, whereas "A possibility" requires no support for any claim at all. I made no claim about greater moral fiber, but if you think that past generations didn't "make do with less", you're now making an extraordinary against-the-grain claim. So, "give us a citation proving why you should be suspicious of that comment". See how annoying that is?
- yorwba 9y ago
  Firstly, "another possibility" is just one of multiple options, and no claim was made that it is the right explanation. It only needs to be plausible, and evidence of plausibility is easy to come up with. Secondly, if not trying to to convince someone else, nobody needs evidence for ideas they already believe. But since you were making a strong claim, asking for evidence means giving you the chance to show that you have convincing reasons for your opinion. Of course, if you don't have evidence, that's fine, too. Just don't expect to change anyone's mind.
  - vacri 9y ago
    > evidence of plausibility is easy to come up with. Cool, it's easy: then provide some, please. Provide some citations for it rather than just accepting the common knowledge, since common knowledge is often wrong. > asking for evidence means giving you the chance to show that you have convincing reasons for your opinion. No. Asking someone for more information, or asking someone to round out the idea more is giving the chance to show convincing reasons. Asking bluntly for a citational proof is mere dismissal.
    - yorwba 9y ago
      Evidence that "companies have gotten better at hitting people's reward centers to drive more consumption and thus profits" is a plausible explanation: 1. Companies are motivated to increase profits. [1] 2. Increasing consumption is one way to increase profits. [2] 3. Generally applicable techniques for increasing easily measurable business statistics have been developed and improved. [3] 4. Consumption is one such statistic. [4] 5. People are more likely to eat food they enjoy, even if they know it's unhealthy. [5] Thus it is plausible that companies have found ways to increase consumption by "hitting people's reward centers". 6. People get fat when they eat more. [6] Therefore this plausible statement provides an explanation for increased obesity. I hope this is enough evidence for you. Note that I don't think citations are the be all and end all of evidence. They are a useful tool in academic discussion, but in more informal settings, appealing to common knowledge is usually enough, unless it's that common knowledge itself that is under doubt. When you eventually provide evidence for your claim that people exercise their willpower less, I won't require citations for everything. I'd like to see a well-reasoned argument, however. [1] Henry Hazlitt, "Economics in One Lesson", pp. 141: The Function of Profits [2] Elementary mathematics: if you make a certain profit on each item sold and consumed, increased consumption increases profit. [3] e.g. https://www.mv-research.com/research/pricing https://www.mv-research.com/research/pricing [4] If you keep books on your sales, you have already measured it. [5] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278431915000651 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278431915... [6] http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2009/10/14/ajcn.2009.28595.full.pdf http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2009/10/14/ajcn.2009...

Retric 9y ago

So, your theory is essentially every culture in every country worldwide has reduced personal discipline? What's the cause of that change? Just to add, being fat takes significantly more calories than being thin. So, you really need a lot of excess food production before large scale obesity is even possible.

KGIII 9y ago
If I had to take a stab at it, I'd suggest more immediate gratification and less abject poverty. I have no source and didn't look for one, but those may be causes for less personal discipline. And we do have excess food production. We can feed the whole planet. Food supply isn't the problem, distribution and affordability is the problem. So, that is my purely layman stab at it. I wouldn't even know where to begin doing quality research on this.
vacri 9y ago
Jeez, talking about begging the question. No, not 'essentially every culture in every country worldwide' has an obesity problem, so your strawman doesn't even fit.
- Retric 9y ago
  Worldwide every single country has over 20% of the population is Obese excluding possibility Sudan and South Sudan which lacks data and is in the middle of a war. http://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.A904?lang=en http://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.A904?lang=en India for example seems low by comparison, but the rate is still up more than 20% since 1975. 18.5% for adults in 1975 vs 21.8% in 2016. Even Ethiopia the lowest country in the world is over 20.6 vs 17.7%.
  - vacri 9y ago
    ... and from your link, almost all the countries were over 20% in 1975 as well. Plenty of them have barely changed. > but the rate is still up more than 20% since 1975. 18.5% for adults in 1975 vs 21.8% in 2016 Nitpick: a rise of 20% on that 18.5% would make it 22.2% Edit: I'm also not sure why the 20% marker seems to be your cutoff for "having an obesity problem". Ethiopia's famous famine went from 1983-85, yet their obesity rate for '85 is 18.7%. That seems to be an awful thin line to walk, where 18.7% marks a famine and 20% marks obesity problem. Similarly, the Second Congo War went from 1999 to 2003 and almost 4 million people died, mostly from famine.. yet throughout that, the Democratic Republic of the Congo maintained obesity rates above 20% in your link.