4 ms·

There is substantial scientific evidence showing age-related cognitive decline begins relatively early in adulthood. The science is not controversial. http://e

by j10t 9y ago

There is substantial scientific evidence showing age-related cognitive decline begins relatively early in adulthood. The science is not controversial. http://examinedexistence.com//wp-content/uploads/2013/12/crystallized-fluid.jpg http://examinedexistence.com//wp-content/uploads/2013/12/cry... This is a simplified view but communicates the idea. Some might say crystallized intelligence is under-valued in tech. That might be true. But then we should discuss that, not through the lens of social justice against age discrimination.

DrJohanson 9y ago
Maybe experience can be more valuable than raw cognitive ability?
sillysaurus3 9y ago
On behalf of all old people: Fuck that, and fuck the idea that cognitive performance alone should determine whether someone in our industry can eat. Because as much as we love to tout that every programmer is living with a house and a mortgage and a happy family, I happen to know for a fact that some are struggling to eat. Eh. Not exactly an objective viewpoint, I know. But to maybe drain away some of the energy I just threw into that: Being old is our shared destination. It'll happen to you too. It'll happen to me. How is this a productive outlook? I've known some amazingly productive old people. I learned from one of the best in the gamedev industry. He was my mentor, and basically a mini carmack. When I hear statements like this, I cannot fathom how people believe this myth that old people are inherently less able to kick your ass at programming. I really hesitate to bring this up, but there's this dopey argument that HN trolls love to bring up, where they point to a certain area of science and say "Look! Black people are inherently dumber. The science says so." Yet the one black man that I was fortunate enough to work with in our industry -- one, out of six companies, there was only one -- was the most effective, cool coworker I was fortunate enough to know. It's incredibly easy to point to some science and say "Oh, I'm objective." But I invite you to re-read http://www.paulgraham.com/bias.html http://www.paulgraham.com/bias.html carefully, and realize that if what you say is true, then our industry is populated with stellar outliers. That's the definition of bias, right? They have to be stellar to overcome it. So why would you want argue that the stellar people that managed to get through the gauntlet of discrimination should be looked down upon?
- mcny 9y ago
  > I've known some amazingly productive old people. I learned from one of the best in the gamedev industry. He was my mentor, and basically a mini carmack. When I hear statements like this, I cannot fathom how people believe this myth that old people are inherently less able to kick your ass at programming. I'm increasingly old (and hope to live to be really old) but we should try to keep our personal self interests out of the conversation. We need a strong social net that works for everyone, not equal opportunity at work for old folks (or insert demographics here). I'm not advocating we remove existing laws. I just want scientific findings to be free of chilling effects. Personally, I'd expect older people to do better than younger people. I fear that we can't fix the human brain rotting(?) away if we deny it is happening.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    We need a strong social net that works for everyone, not equal opportunity at work for old folks (or insert demographics here). Disagree. The point of a social net is to catch those who fall, not those who dont. I'd take this one step further though. Equal opportunity programs seem to be harmful in our industry. The moment we try to enforce a hiring quota, everyone else starts to feel resentful. That causes real difficulties in a team-based setting. I'm not sure whether those difficulties outweigh the good brought by the programs, but it's hard to argue that they're objectively good. Rather than an equal opportunity program, it would be better to rid of our own mistaken idea that old people are less intelligent. Personally, I'd expect older people to do better than younger people. I fear that we can't fix the human brain rotting(?) away if we deny it is happening. I made no such argument. Again: The old people that populate our industry are the stellar outliers. They're the ones who are smart in spite of the brain rotting (such an endearing term we've chosen). Even if that's true in the general case, it doesn't matter that the average old person is less intelligent. Our industry isn't filled with average old people.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - jmull 9y ago
mcny 9y ago
It reminds me of a quote. The British number theorist G.H. Hardy, in A Mathematician's Apology, one of the most widely read books about the nature and practice of mathematics, famously wrote: "No mathematician should ever allow himself to forget that mathematics, more than any other art or science, is a young man's game." Basically, the claim is that people over the age of thirty being productive in math is an anomaly. However, I've never used any advanced mathematical concepts as a programmer so I doubt my quote has any validity here. I imagine things are different in data science but I only concede because I have no idea what data scientists do. It just feels like magic.
- taway_1212 9y ago
  > Basically, the claim is that people over the age of thirty being productive in math is an anomaly. It can be speculated that young people often don't have a family and are eager to prove themselves to the world - so they have both the environment and the motivation to work extra hard.
scaryclam 9y ago
I think it's sad that the myth that you have to be some sort of genius to be in this industry persists. It's just not true. Most jobs consist of simple work, no matter how complex the people doing it tell themselves it is. Experience is far more important than raw intelligence for more advanced work.
- andai 9y ago
  That's what bothers me about AI. When people say AI is a long way from [human quality or skill], it's missing the point. In most work, and even in our field, the work that most people do doesn't require human level intelligence.
tMcGrath 9y ago
There's a reason the axes are left unlabeled in this graph. If you look at a paper that gives values over time for these quantities you'll find that this 'effect' mounts up to about 3 IQ points over the range discussed in the article in a population with an SD of 12 [0]. As a basis for discrimination, this is nonsense: on an individual basis you learn next to nothing about an individual's IQ if you know their age. Of course, there may be better studies out there - I'm not an expert and so don't know of them. [0] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0887617795000038 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/08876177950...
- mythrwy 9y ago
  The graph on page 11 is particularly interesting. It looks like fluid IQ peaks around 24 then rapidly declines until around 30. Between the 30 and 50 the decline somewhat levels off.. i.e, doesn't decline a much during that period and crystallized IQ increases slightly. After 50, fluid IQ resumes a rapid decline at a steady rate until about 75 where it really begins to tank. But you are right, for the timescale in question the IQ difference is pretty small. I'm sure everyone reading this is very smart so a difference of 3 or 4 points shouldn't concern them all that much :) A couple of things I wonder about, lack of physical activity (I've read) helps hasten cognitive decline. Sitting in a chair for 20 years as opposed to being active for 20 years, wonder what difference it makes? Perhaps sitting in a chair and thinking more than offsets the difference? Also I wonder about so many world leaders being well over 50 or 60, for example Supreme Court Justices in their 80's. What would happen if a long resume didn't matter so much and we had a slightly younger (not 24 god forbid!) group running government? Just a hypothetical question. But from that graph, if you are going to hire a 30 year old over a 45 year old (because "younger people are smarter") it appears you'd actually be better off with the 45 year old in sum (crystallized and fluid) intelligence plus whatever experience bonus.
GlennS 9y ago
"Crystallized intelligence"? Patience and attention to detail is what make a good programmer.
intellectronica 9y ago
This argument is kind of pointless. Hiring for almost all tech jobs is based neither on some kind of "crystallized intelligence" nor on a hypothetical cognitive potential. Rather, jobs are usually matched with people who have the right skills. When a candidate with the right skills for a job gets rejected it's reasonable to ask whether age discrimination was a factor. One counter argument that I would be willing to consider is that sometimes older workers who have neglected to update their skills are explaining their rejection as ageism when in fact they simply can't demonstrate that they have the relevant skills and expect to be hired based on their past (and by now, not so relevant) experience.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  This argument is kind of pointless. Hiring for almost all tech jobs is based neither on some kind of "crystallized intelligence" nor on a hypothetical cognitive potential. Rather, jobs are usually matched with people who have the right skills. Not in my experience. It's all about whether a candidate can come in and learn quickly. The skills are nearly irrelevant. Which makes sense. What are the chances that you're going to be versed in every technology a new company uses? Also, the idea that old people need to have exact skills is harmful. Our industry changes so rapidly that the old people are the most likely to have resumes that don't reflect their potential. Nobody believes them when they say they can learn just as quickly as everyone else.
  - intellectronica 9y ago
    I'm not sure what your experience has been, but mine (more than 20 years of working in several jobs, doing quite a lot of hiring myself) is that there are two main tracks: 1. hiring promising interns and graduates - no relevant skills but the hope is that they're so smart they'll be able to learn quickly 2. hiring people with very relevant skills - either they've already done the exact same thing at another company or they've done something adjacent and quite similar and can probably handle the switch. The 2nd track is the bigger one by a wide margin, for the simple fact that people are only 20-something-recent-graduates once in their life time, but tend to move to new jobs several times during their career.
bdcravens 9y ago
By the same token, alcohol consumption has been shown to lower IQ over time, so should we value sober job candidates? "People who have been drinking large amounts of alcohol for long periods of time run the risk of developing serious and persistent changes in the brain. Damage may be a result of the direct effects of alcohol on the brain or may result indirectly, from a poor general health status or from severe liver disease." https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa63/aa63.htm https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa63/aa63.htm

by j10t 9y ago

DrJohanson 9y ago

Maybe experience can be more valuable than raw cognitive ability?

sillysaurus3 9y ago

On behalf of all old people: Fuck that, and fuck the idea that cognitive performance alone should determine whether someone in our industry can eat. Because as much as we love to tout that every programmer is living with a house and a mortgage and a happy family, I happen to know for a fact that some are struggling to eat. Eh. Not exactly an objective viewpoint, I know. But to maybe drain away some of the energy I just threw into that: Being old is our shared destination. It'll happen to you too. It'll happen to me. How is this a productive outlook? I've known some amazingly productive old people. I learned from one of the best in the gamedev industry. He was my mentor, and basically a mini carmack. When I hear statements like this, I cannot fathom how people believe this myth that old people are inherently less able to kick your ass at programming. I really hesitate to bring this up, but there's this dopey argument that HN trolls love to bring up, where they point to a certain area of science and say "Look! Black people are inherently dumber. The science says so." Yet the one black man that I was fortunate enough to work with in our industry -- one, out of six companies, there was only one -- was the most effective, cool coworker I was fortunate enough to know. It's incredibly easy to point to some science and say "Oh, I'm objective." But I invite you to re-read http://www.paulgraham.com/bias.html http://www.paulgraham.com/bias.html carefully, and realize that if what you say is true, then our industry is populated with stellar outliers. That's the definition of bias, right? They have to be stellar to overcome it. So why would you want argue that the stellar people that managed to get through the gauntlet of discrimination should be looked down upon?

mcny 9y ago
> I've known some amazingly productive old people. I learned from one of the best in the gamedev industry. He was my mentor, and basically a mini carmack. When I hear statements like this, I cannot fathom how people believe this myth that old people are inherently less able to kick your ass at programming. I'm increasingly old (and hope to live to be really old) but we should try to keep our personal self interests out of the conversation. We need a strong social net that works for everyone, not equal opportunity at work for old folks (or insert demographics here). I'm not advocating we remove existing laws. I just want scientific findings to be free of chilling effects. Personally, I'd expect older people to do better than younger people. I fear that we can't fix the human brain rotting(?) away if we deny it is happening.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  We need a strong social net that works for everyone, not equal opportunity at work for old folks (or insert demographics here). Disagree. The point of a social net is to catch those who fall, not those who dont. I'd take this one step further though. Equal opportunity programs seem to be harmful in our industry. The moment we try to enforce a hiring quota, everyone else starts to feel resentful. That causes real difficulties in a team-based setting. I'm not sure whether those difficulties outweigh the good brought by the programs, but it's hard to argue that they're objectively good. Rather than an equal opportunity program, it would be better to rid of our own mistaken idea that old people are less intelligent. Personally, I'd expect older people to do better than younger people. I fear that we can't fix the human brain rotting(?) away if we deny it is happening. I made no such argument. Again: The old people that populate our industry are the stellar outliers. They're the ones who are smart in spite of the brain rotting (such an endearing term we've chosen). Even if that's true in the general case, it doesn't matter that the average old person is less intelligent. Our industry isn't filled with average old people.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- jmull 9y ago

mcny 9y ago

It reminds me of a quote. The British number theorist G.H. Hardy, in A Mathematician's Apology, one of the most widely read books about the nature and practice of mathematics, famously wrote: "No mathematician should ever allow himself to forget that mathematics, more than any other art or science, is a young man's game." Basically, the claim is that people over the age of thirty being productive in math is an anomaly. However, I've never used any advanced mathematical concepts as a programmer so I doubt my quote has any validity here. I imagine things are different in data science but I only concede because I have no idea what data scientists do. It just feels like magic.

taway_1212 9y ago
> Basically, the claim is that people over the age of thirty being productive in math is an anomaly. It can be speculated that young people often don't have a family and are eager to prove themselves to the world - so they have both the environment and the motivation to work extra hard.

scaryclam 9y ago

I think it's sad that the myth that you have to be some sort of genius to be in this industry persists. It's just not true. Most jobs consist of simple work, no matter how complex the people doing it tell themselves it is. Experience is far more important than raw intelligence for more advanced work.

andai 9y ago
That's what bothers me about AI. When people say AI is a long way from [human quality or skill], it's missing the point. In most work, and even in our field, the work that most people do doesn't require human level intelligence.

tMcGrath 9y ago

There's a reason the axes are left unlabeled in this graph. If you look at a paper that gives values over time for these quantities you'll find that this 'effect' mounts up to about 3 IQ points over the range discussed in the article in a population with an SD of 12 [0]. As a basis for discrimination, this is nonsense: on an individual basis you learn next to nothing about an individual's IQ if you know their age. Of course, there may be better studies out there - I'm not an expert and so don't know of them. [0] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0887617795000038 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/08876177950...

mythrwy 9y ago
The graph on page 11 is particularly interesting. It looks like fluid IQ peaks around 24 then rapidly declines until around 30. Between the 30 and 50 the decline somewhat levels off.. i.e, doesn't decline a much during that period and crystallized IQ increases slightly. After 50, fluid IQ resumes a rapid decline at a steady rate until about 75 where it really begins to tank. But you are right, for the timescale in question the IQ difference is pretty small. I'm sure everyone reading this is very smart so a difference of 3 or 4 points shouldn't concern them all that much :) A couple of things I wonder about, lack of physical activity (I've read) helps hasten cognitive decline. Sitting in a chair for 20 years as opposed to being active for 20 years, wonder what difference it makes? Perhaps sitting in a chair and thinking more than offsets the difference? Also I wonder about so many world leaders being well over 50 or 60, for example Supreme Court Justices in their 80's. What would happen if a long resume didn't matter so much and we had a slightly younger (not 24 god forbid!) group running government? Just a hypothetical question. But from that graph, if you are going to hire a 30 year old over a 45 year old (because "younger people are smarter") it appears you'd actually be better off with the 45 year old in sum (crystallized and fluid) intelligence plus whatever experience bonus.

GlennS 9y ago

"Crystallized intelligence"? Patience and attention to detail is what make a good programmer.

intellectronica 9y ago

This argument is kind of pointless. Hiring for almost all tech jobs is based neither on some kind of "crystallized intelligence" nor on a hypothetical cognitive potential. Rather, jobs are usually matched with people who have the right skills. When a candidate with the right skills for a job gets rejected it's reasonable to ask whether age discrimination was a factor. One counter argument that I would be willing to consider is that sometimes older workers who have neglected to update their skills are explaining their rejection as ageism when in fact they simply can't demonstrate that they have the relevant skills and expect to be hired based on their past (and by now, not so relevant) experience.

sillysaurus3 9y ago
This argument is kind of pointless. Hiring for almost all tech jobs is based neither on some kind of "crystallized intelligence" nor on a hypothetical cognitive potential. Rather, jobs are usually matched with people who have the right skills. Not in my experience. It's all about whether a candidate can come in and learn quickly. The skills are nearly irrelevant. Which makes sense. What are the chances that you're going to be versed in every technology a new company uses? Also, the idea that old people need to have exact skills is harmful. Our industry changes so rapidly that the old people are the most likely to have resumes that don't reflect their potential. Nobody believes them when they say they can learn just as quickly as everyone else.
- intellectronica 9y ago
  I'm not sure what your experience has been, but mine (more than 20 years of working in several jobs, doing quite a lot of hiring myself) is that there are two main tracks: 1. hiring promising interns and graduates - no relevant skills but the hope is that they're so smart they'll be able to learn quickly 2. hiring people with very relevant skills - either they've already done the exact same thing at another company or they've done something adjacent and quite similar and can probably handle the switch. The 2nd track is the bigger one by a wide margin, for the simple fact that people are only 20-something-recent-graduates once in their life time, but tend to move to new jobs several times during their career.

bdcravens 9y ago

By the same token, alcohol consumption has been shown to lower IQ over time, so should we value sober job candidates? "People who have been drinking large amounts of alcohol for long periods of time run the risk of developing serious and persistent changes in the brain. Damage may be a result of the direct effects of alcohol on the brain or may result indirectly, from a poor general health status or from severe liver disease." https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa63/aa63.htm https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa63/aa63.htm