8 ms·

If you want to talk about 1968, we can talk about the mass purges going on in China too. Criticizing the history of the United States is fine, but it's not eve

If you want to talk about 1968, we can talk about the mass purges going on in China too. Criticizing the history of the United States is fine, but it's not even in the same universe regarding human rights abuses. China continues to purge and "disappear" people, so I can understand why you wouldn't want to talk about 2017.

user982 9y ago
The "extraordinary rendition" international kidnapping program that literally disappeared people and was facilitated by Diego Garcia began in 2001. The "Chagos Marine Protected Area" which was internally praised as "the most effective long-term way to prevent any of the Chagos Islands' former inhabitants or their descendants from resettling"[1] was established in 2010. But that's fine, that's clearly ancient history. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagos_Marine_Protected_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagos_Marine_Protected_Area
- semperdark 9y ago
  The forced resettlement happened in 1968. Further developments, while illegal, don't carry forward the original sin. You can't categorize the entire history of the island under "2010" because something new happened. We're talking about 2,000 people being exiled. I understand that this injustice may be meaningful to you, but we are talking about a country that has forcibly resettled hundreds of millions of people, and continues to relocate tens of thousands yearly. I will never defend illegal actions taken by the US. However, by mentioning the two in the same breath you're normalizing one of the most objectively evil dictatorships in the world.
rqs 9y ago
> China continues to purge and "disappear" people, so I can understand why you wouldn't want to talk about 2017. Can you give me few examples of that? As a Chinese I'm interested.
- talking_car 9y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...
talking_car 9y ago
>but it's not even in the same universe regarding human rights abuses. China continues to purge and "disappear" people ... The distinction is not as clear-cut as you claim, that is if you factor in America's many ongoing foreign entanglements around the world, including those which are not so well-known. America still "disappears" people.
yesenadam 9y ago
Do you count killing someone as human rights abuse? Killing hundreds of thousands, millions? I guess these U.S. killings have been mostly of people in other countries, which don't count as human rights abuses? It's somehow worse if a country kills its own people, than the people of other countries?
- semperdark 9y ago
  I would love you to find me a source for millions of non enemy combatant deaths directly caused by the US. Notice that I never said that the US hasn't committed shameful human rights abuses. I'd be happy to discuss them. Most are taught in schools, like Kent State in which 4 students were killed. Do the Chinese teach about Tiananmen, where hundreds were killed? If you seriously want to compare the US to one of the bloodiest nations in the history of the world, I'll take that comparison any day.
  - anon231321 9y ago
    "I would love you to find me a source for millions of non enemy combatant deaths directly caused by the US." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORB_survey_of_Iraq_War_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORB_survey_of_Iraq_War_casualt...
  - user982 9y ago
    > I would love you to find me a source for millions of non enemy combatant deaths directly caused by the US. The US killed roughly 20% of the population of North Korea with direct targeted bombings of civilian centers and infrastructure.[1] They destroyed so much of the country that they ran out of targets. Civilian death estimates for North Korea alone start around 1.5 million. "We went over there and fought the war and eventually burned down every town in North Korea anyway, someway or another, and some in South Korea too." — General Curtis LeMay [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-us-war-crime-north-korea-wont-forget/2015/03/20/fb525694-ce80-11e4-8c54-ffb5ba6f2f69_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-us-war-crime-nor...
    - 9y ago
fsloth 9y ago
Unites states assassinates 'enemy combatants' without any judge or jury hearing their case. If I was on a US govt shit list I would be very weary of traveling to places where US drones can operate without impunity. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix Sure, with US this is more or less open policy but it does not really make it any more respectable. It just shows US has the propaganda advantage. China represses their own citizens, US blows other countries citizens to bits. I still value US military assets in Europe and elsewhere but the question is not really about who has intrinsically higher morals. I.e a region always has someone with the biggest capability of violence and of the current geopolitical players, I would prefer the US camp. But this does not make them the 'good guys', rather, generally the least evil.
- semperdark 9y ago
  As I mentioned elsewhere, I will never defend illegal actions taken by the US government. I'm genuinely aghast at many of the things that have been uncovered. That said, the numbers of people harmed by the US and China are not remotely comparable. Bringing up the US in a discussion about China does nothing but give cover to a country which continues to repress a fifth of the world's population. Europe and the US have plenty of moral failings. Using those to undermine every criticism of far worse countries is itself a failing. Claiming relativism between imperfect nations and tyrants helps only the tyrants.
  - fsloth 9y ago
    I totally agree about relativism not being a credible defense in any circumstance. I was not very verbose. My aim was to point out nation states are not that different in their capability to sacrifice moral for power. That in itself does not excuse any malfeasance.
    - semperdark 9y ago
      I understand. In my original reply, I actually wrote in and then deleted a sentence saying that I didn't mean to accuse you specifically of doing so.

user982 9y ago

The "extraordinary rendition" international kidnapping program that literally disappeared people and was facilitated by Diego Garcia began in 2001. The "Chagos Marine Protected Area" which was internally praised as "the most effective long-term way to prevent any of the Chagos Islands' former inhabitants or their descendants from resettling"[1] was established in 2010. But that's fine, that's clearly ancient history. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagos_Marine_Protected_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagos_Marine_Protected_Area

semperdark 9y ago
The forced resettlement happened in 1968. Further developments, while illegal, don't carry forward the original sin. You can't categorize the entire history of the island under "2010" because something new happened. We're talking about 2,000 people being exiled. I understand that this injustice may be meaningful to you, but we are talking about a country that has forcibly resettled hundreds of millions of people, and continues to relocate tens of thousands yearly. I will never defend illegal actions taken by the US. However, by mentioning the two in the same breath you're normalizing one of the most objectively evil dictatorships in the world.

rqs 9y ago

> China continues to purge and "disappear" people, so I can understand why you wouldn't want to talk about 2017. Can you give me few examples of that? As a Chinese I'm interested.

talking_car 9y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...

talking_car 9y ago

>but it's not even in the same universe regarding human rights abuses. China continues to purge and "disappear" people ... The distinction is not as clear-cut as you claim, that is if you factor in America's many ongoing foreign entanglements around the world, including those which are not so well-known. America still "disappears" people.

yesenadam 9y ago

Do you count killing someone as human rights abuse? Killing hundreds of thousands, millions? I guess these U.S. killings have been mostly of people in other countries, which don't count as human rights abuses? It's somehow worse if a country kills its own people, than the people of other countries?

semperdark 9y ago
I would love you to find me a source for millions of non enemy combatant deaths directly caused by the US. Notice that I never said that the US hasn't committed shameful human rights abuses. I'd be happy to discuss them. Most are taught in schools, like Kent State in which 4 students were killed. Do the Chinese teach about Tiananmen, where hundreds were killed? If you seriously want to compare the US to one of the bloodiest nations in the history of the world, I'll take that comparison any day.
- anon231321 9y ago
  "I would love you to find me a source for millions of non enemy combatant deaths directly caused by the US." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORB_survey_of_Iraq_War_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORB_survey_of_Iraq_War_casualt...
- user982 9y ago
  > I would love you to find me a source for millions of non enemy combatant deaths directly caused by the US. The US killed roughly 20% of the population of North Korea with direct targeted bombings of civilian centers and infrastructure.[1] They destroyed so much of the country that they ran out of targets. Civilian death estimates for North Korea alone start around 1.5 million. "We went over there and fought the war and eventually burned down every town in North Korea anyway, someway or another, and some in South Korea too." — General Curtis LeMay [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-us-war-crime-north-korea-wont-forget/2015/03/20/fb525694-ce80-11e4-8c54-ffb5ba6f2f69_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-us-war-crime-nor...
  - 9y ago

fsloth 9y ago

Unites states assassinates 'enemy combatants' without any judge or jury hearing their case. If I was on a US govt shit list I would be very weary of traveling to places where US drones can operate without impunity. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix Sure, with US this is more or less open policy but it does not really make it any more respectable. It just shows US has the propaganda advantage. China represses their own citizens, US blows other countries citizens to bits. I still value US military assets in Europe and elsewhere but the question is not really about who has intrinsically higher morals. I.e a region always has someone with the biggest capability of violence and of the current geopolitical players, I would prefer the US camp. But this does not make them the 'good guys', rather, generally the least evil.

semperdark 9y ago
As I mentioned elsewhere, I will never defend illegal actions taken by the US government. I'm genuinely aghast at many of the things that have been uncovered. That said, the numbers of people harmed by the US and China are not remotely comparable. Bringing up the US in a discussion about China does nothing but give cover to a country which continues to repress a fifth of the world's population. Europe and the US have plenty of moral failings. Using those to undermine every criticism of far worse countries is itself a failing. Claiming relativism between imperfect nations and tyrants helps only the tyrants.
- fsloth 9y ago
  I totally agree about relativism not being a credible defense in any circumstance. I was not very verbose. My aim was to point out nation states are not that different in their capability to sacrifice moral for power. That in itself does not excuse any malfeasance.
  - semperdark 9y ago
    I understand. In my original reply, I actually wrote in and then deleted a sentence saying that I didn't mean to accuse you specifically of doing so.