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I'm not at all confident in the ability of the US to "clean up this mess". Similar arguments were made before the war in Iraq. I won't defend Saddam but I don't

I'm not at all confident in the ability of the US to "clean up this mess". Similar arguments were made before the war in Iraq. I won't defend Saddam but I don't think you can argue that the average Iraqi ended up better off.

adamnemecek 9y ago
You are overssimplifying the situation. Iraq and NK are/were both dictatorships but the similarity ends there. Cultural differences go very far.
- spamizbad 9y ago
  No, you're over-simplifying this by assuming we can resolve a humanitarian issue with a war. We can't. Even conservatives like Steve Bannon know this. The Iraq War plus its aftermath has a death toll approaching 1 million, 1/6th the size of the Holocaust. Conflict with North Korea will be even worse.
  - atomical 9y ago
    You're responding to the wrong commenter. No one knows how many people die in North Korean concentration camps every year. But you can be sure that the total number of deaths will increase every year that the Kims are in power. There is no solution but war.
    - spamizbad 9y ago
      > No one knows how many people die in North Korean concentration camps every year It's less than 70,000 each year, which is how many have died due to the Iraq war. If North Korea deserves war, what does the United States deserve?
  - fjsolwmv 9y ago
    You are catastrophically underestimating the size of the Holocaust. 6 million is only the Jews murdered by Nazi operations. Another 5+ million non Jews were murdered, plus, since we're comparing follow-on effects of war, many more millions of military fighters and civilians bombed.
    - spamizbad 9y ago
      Very true. Thanks for pointing this out.
  - adamnemecek 9y ago
    Iraq war Was fundamentally different. NK is extremely hierarchical, once the leadership is removed, the country can be reconstructed much easier. I can't say I care about Seth Bannons opinion.
    - spamizbad 9y ago
      China, who knows them best, seems to disagree. Otherwise they would have taken care of the Kim family years ago. There were similar "this is different! It will be easy!" arguments made for Iraq as well, especially when people suggested it could be like Vietnam (in the quagmire sense, not US causalities sense)
      - adamnemecek 9y ago
        I disagree with the premise and the conclusion.
  - farnsworth 9y ago
    Exactly, we don't even want to give Puerto Ricans the support they need, so what's the chance Trump won't drop some bombs, declare victory, then leave millions to rot?
atomical 9y ago
Stalin and Mao supplied Kim Il Sung in the Korean War because they didn't want democracy to spread to Asia. China and Russia are still obstructing the US with the same goal of preventing democracy. If we don't do it no one will. The Kims have proven their ability to retain power. Some people think death is better than having to live in North Korea: http://www.worldtribune.com/senior-north-korea-official-and-family-commit-suicide-while-in-chinese-police-custody/ http://www.worldtribune.com/senior-north-korea-official-and-...
- fjsolwmv 9y ago
  Russia and China govert have no problem with foreign "democracy", just like USA has no problem with communism, per se. They are all just opposed to small nation's allying with their enemies. The history of USA and Latin America makes this clear.
  - atomical 9y ago
    After Stalin died his letters were released and he was denounced. His letters confirm that China and Russia did have a problem with democracy and that it was the impetus for their support of Kim Il Sung during the Korean War.
- wvenable 9y ago
  At this point it has nothing to do with "preventing democracy" (if it ever did). All countries want to prevent the massive refugee crisis that would exist if North Korea suddenly falls. I think something should be done but I don't think anyone currently has a good answer to that situation.
  - atomical 9y ago
    You are acting as though it's questionable whether Stalin and Mao got involved in the Korean War to prevent the spread of democracy. Check out the book The Great Leader and the Fighter Pilot. It covers the history of the Korean War and Stalin and Mao's actions. Also, a really great story about the famous fighter pilot No Kum-sok.

adamnemecek 9y ago

You are overssimplifying the situation. Iraq and NK are/were both dictatorships but the similarity ends there. Cultural differences go very far.

spamizbad 9y ago
No, you're over-simplifying this by assuming we can resolve a humanitarian issue with a war. We can't. Even conservatives like Steve Bannon know this. The Iraq War plus its aftermath has a death toll approaching 1 million, 1/6th the size of the Holocaust. Conflict with North Korea will be even worse.
- atomical 9y ago
  You're responding to the wrong commenter. No one knows how many people die in North Korean concentration camps every year. But you can be sure that the total number of deaths will increase every year that the Kims are in power. There is no solution but war.
  - spamizbad 9y ago
    > No one knows how many people die in North Korean concentration camps every year It's less than 70,000 each year, which is how many have died due to the Iraq war. If North Korea deserves war, what does the United States deserve?
- fjsolwmv 9y ago
  You are catastrophically underestimating the size of the Holocaust. 6 million is only the Jews murdered by Nazi operations. Another 5+ million non Jews were murdered, plus, since we're comparing follow-on effects of war, many more millions of military fighters and civilians bombed.
  - spamizbad 9y ago
    Very true. Thanks for pointing this out.
- adamnemecek 9y ago
  Iraq war Was fundamentally different. NK is extremely hierarchical, once the leadership is removed, the country can be reconstructed much easier. I can't say I care about Seth Bannons opinion.
  - spamizbad 9y ago
    China, who knows them best, seems to disagree. Otherwise they would have taken care of the Kim family years ago. There were similar "this is different! It will be easy!" arguments made for Iraq as well, especially when people suggested it could be like Vietnam (in the quagmire sense, not US causalities sense)
    - adamnemecek 9y ago
      I disagree with the premise and the conclusion.
- farnsworth 9y ago
  Exactly, we don't even want to give Puerto Ricans the support they need, so what's the chance Trump won't drop some bombs, declare victory, then leave millions to rot?

atomical 9y ago

Stalin and Mao supplied Kim Il Sung in the Korean War because they didn't want democracy to spread to Asia. China and Russia are still obstructing the US with the same goal of preventing democracy. If we don't do it no one will. The Kims have proven their ability to retain power. Some people think death is better than having to live in North Korea: http://www.worldtribune.com/senior-north-korea-official-and-family-commit-suicide-while-in-chinese-police-custody/ http://www.worldtribune.com/senior-north-korea-official-and-...

fjsolwmv 9y ago
Russia and China govert have no problem with foreign "democracy", just like USA has no problem with communism, per se. They are all just opposed to small nation's allying with their enemies. The history of USA and Latin America makes this clear.
- atomical 9y ago
  After Stalin died his letters were released and he was denounced. His letters confirm that China and Russia did have a problem with democracy and that it was the impetus for their support of Kim Il Sung during the Korean War.
wvenable 9y ago
At this point it has nothing to do with "preventing democracy" (if it ever did). All countries want to prevent the massive refugee crisis that would exist if North Korea suddenly falls. I think something should be done but I don't think anyone currently has a good answer to that situation.
- atomical 9y ago
  You are acting as though it's questionable whether Stalin and Mao got involved in the Korean War to prevent the spread of democracy. Check out the book The Great Leader and the Fighter Pilot. It covers the history of the Korean War and Stalin and Mao's actions. Also, a really great story about the famous fighter pilot No Kum-sok.