5 ms·

How? “Into the blood” isn’t a mechanism. When was the last time you saw a lump of meat arc and spark? This is fear mongering.

by kobeya 9y ago

userbinator 9y ago
When was the last time you saw a lump of meat arc and spark? Actually, Google "microwave meat sparking" and you'll find plenty of videos --- but in almost all the cases, the meat is cut in a very specific shape (with sharp edges) that makes it concentrate the RF, and of course being a microwave oven the power density is very high. A human body is, to a rough approximation, a bag of water. It will heat, mostly evenly, when exposed to RF (some parts like the eyes do not have good cooling, hence are more dangerous to irradiate, but this is still a conversation about power levels many orders of magnitude higher than a phone would produce.)
- kobeya 9y ago
  Microwaves aren’t RF. The frequency has a very specific interaction with water.
  - keenerd 9y ago
    > Microwaves aren’t RF. Yes they are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_transmission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_transmission > The frequency has a very specific interaction with water. No it doesn't: http://wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2014/10/15/why-are-the-microwaves-in-a-microwave-oven-tuned-to-water/ http://wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2014/10/15/why-are-the-microwave...
    - kobeya 9y ago
      Your link takes an award for missing the point. There is a resonant frequency of liquid water in the microwave range which is why tabletop microwaves use that range. They don’t emit a single frequency, no, but I don’t know anyone who claims they do...
      - TeMPOraL 9y ago
        You literally just wrote microwaves aren't radio frequencies, which is wrong by the very definitions of "microwave" and "radio frequency".
        kobeya 9y ago
        Different fields define the EM energy spectrum differently based on use. You can either argue that "microwave" is one end of the "RF spectrum", or that "microwave" and "radio" are two separate sub-categories of EM energy. My field teaches to the latter. In the end it is an uninteresting point however because it is an argument over what word to use, not fundamental differences in nature. The point I was making earlier which was misinterpreted was that microwave interacts with matter in a fundamentally different way than lower frequency RF, which is critically important to the topic of TFA. Microwaves excite dipoles on the atomic and bio-molecular scale. Lower frequency RF requires some sort of conductive material (or A LOT of energy) to form an antenna, on the other hand, which is why we are transparent to "RF" but not "microwave" (and hence, why some fields treat them separately).
        keenerd 9y ago
        What is your field? What textbook says that "microwave" and "radio" are different? I've been citing a lot of sources here. Just this one from you would be appreciated.
      - keenerd 9y ago
        > There is a resonant frequency of liquid water Yes, I'll give you that > in the microwave range No. Water's first resonance is around 1THz, in the far infrared. > which is why tabletop microwaves use that range. No, they use 2.4GHz because that is what the FCC lets them use. The first microwave oven used 1GHz (https://www.google.com/patents/US2480679 https://www.google.com/patents/US2480679), later increased to 3GHz (https://www.google.com/patents/US2495429 https://www.google.com/patents/US2495429). Anything in that range will work.

How? “Into the blood” isn’t a mechanism. When was the last time you saw a lump of meat arc and spark? This is fear mongering.

by kobeya 9y ago

How? “Into the blood” isn’t a mechanism. When was the last time you saw a lump of meat arc and spark? This is fear mongering.

userbinator 9y ago

When was the last time you saw a lump of meat arc and spark? Actually, Google "microwave meat sparking" and you'll find plenty of videos --- but in almost all the cases, the meat is cut in a very specific shape (with sharp edges) that makes it concentrate the RF, and of course being a microwave oven the power density is very high. A human body is, to a rough approximation, a bag of water. It will heat, mostly evenly, when exposed to RF (some parts like the eyes do not have good cooling, hence are more dangerous to irradiate, but this is still a conversation about power levels many orders of magnitude higher than a phone would produce.)

kobeya 9y ago
Microwaves aren’t RF. The frequency has a very specific interaction with water.
- keenerd 9y ago
  > Microwaves aren’t RF. Yes they are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_transmission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_transmission > The frequency has a very specific interaction with water. No it doesn't: http://wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2014/10/15/why-are-the-microwaves-in-a-microwave-oven-tuned-to-water/ http://wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2014/10/15/why-are-the-microwave...
  - kobeya 9y ago
    Your link takes an award for missing the point. There is a resonant frequency of liquid water in the microwave range which is why tabletop microwaves use that range. They don’t emit a single frequency, no, but I don’t know anyone who claims they do...
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      You literally just wrote microwaves aren't radio frequencies, which is wrong by the very definitions of "microwave" and "radio frequency".
      - kobeya 9y ago
        Different fields define the EM energy spectrum differently based on use. You can either argue that "microwave" is one end of the "RF spectrum", or that "microwave" and "radio" are two separate sub-categories of EM energy. My field teaches to the latter. In the end it is an uninteresting point however because it is an argument over what word to use, not fundamental differences in nature. The point I was making earlier which was misinterpreted was that microwave interacts with matter in a fundamentally different way than lower frequency RF, which is critically important to the topic of TFA. Microwaves excite dipoles on the atomic and bio-molecular scale. Lower frequency RF requires some sort of conductive material (or A LOT of energy) to form an antenna, on the other hand, which is why we are transparent to "RF" but not "microwave" (and hence, why some fields treat them separately).
        keenerd 9y ago
        What is your field? What textbook says that "microwave" and "radio" are different? I've been citing a lot of sources here. Just this one from you would be appreciated.
    - keenerd 9y ago
      > There is a resonant frequency of liquid water Yes, I'll give you that > in the microwave range No. Water's first resonance is around 1THz, in the far infrared. > which is why tabletop microwaves use that range. No, they use 2.4GHz because that is what the FCC lets them use. The first microwave oven used 1GHz (https://www.google.com/patents/US2480679 https://www.google.com/patents/US2480679), later increased to 3GHz (https://www.google.com/patents/US2495429 https://www.google.com/patents/US2495429). Anything in that range will work.