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I would be more worried about issues similar to the diesel gate scandal where manufacturers start forging radiation tests results. How much testing does the go

I would be more worried about issues similar to the diesel gate scandal where manufacturers start forging radiation tests results. How much testing does the government do and how much is the industry self testing?

a1371 9y ago
The problem right now is that the tests are not rigorous enough, so they don't even need to do that. The regulation allows them to test the radiation level when the cellphone is 15mm from the body. If the cellphone is on the body without a gap, none of the flagship phones meet the safe level of radiation when they are broadcasting to a tower far away. Also, the radiation test only tests the size of an adult's body, so children, who will have a larger region of their body and head impacted, are missed from the test. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm69ik_Qdb8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm69ik_Qdb8
lucaspiller 9y ago
Unfortunately that appears to already be the case: http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-news/32170-netgear-suing-asus-for-wireless-hanky-panky http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-news/32170-... WiFi transmission power is almost always controlled by software, with no hardware limits. It’s very easy to override this and transmit above the legal limit, to the point where you could potentially damage the hardware itself.
Alex3917 9y ago
> I would be more worried about issues similar to the diesel gate scandal where manufacturers start forging radiation tests results. They already do. Part of the reason why government-funded tests are more likely to show that cell phones cause cancer is that there have been industry-funded tests that have placed the phones several inches away from the subject's body and put them in shielded cases.
lgats 9y ago
Hi, I'm no expert on the exact regulations, but I run fccid.io and have a pretty good idea of the process manufacturers go through. Although forgery of results would be possible, almost all testing is done by independent labs. It would be possible for the manufacturer to submit a "compliant" sample but then program the rest of the units to radiate differently. What I see most commonly are devices being sold without any FCC testing. All wireless devices sold in the USA should have certification but many new startups may not know the regulation around the industry (i.e. a kickstarter smart bike lock project might not take FCC certification into account and end up selling a few thousand devices before going belly up). Testing is often thousands of dollars so for a little-known startup they may just try to ride on the fact that their Aliexpress supplied Bluetooth chip "is FCC certified" (it's not). It's not always startups that are skirting the testing though, Bayer's Aleve Direct Therapy TENS bosts some invalid FCC IDs on the user manual. https://www.aleve.com/aleve-direct-therapy/how-it-works/ https://www.aleve.com/aleve-direct-therapy/how-it-works/ From what I've seen, there is little to no actual enforcement that goes on within this licensing space (but there is also a pretty high rate of compliance). The FCC has an outline from 2008 where they explain more of the compliance audit process: https://transition.fcc.gov/oet/ea/presentations/files/oct08/Oct_08-Audit_and_Compliance_Issues.pdf https://transition.fcc.gov/oet/ea/presentations/files/oct08/...
- lgats 9y ago
  Bonus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlEZ8Cj3YGk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlEZ8Cj3YGk Youtube video produced by mobile phone manufacturers.
- revelation 9y ago
  What are we talking about, basic CE cert EMI testing or in depth RF radio certification? Most kickstarter projects or companies in general don't do own RF design, they buy fully certified modules.
- robocat 9y ago
  > Although forgery of results would be possible However, testing is done by multiple independent countries, so for any significant effect something would be found.
TeMPOraL 9y ago
FWIW, I feel that any big violation of radiation limits would be quickly found out as the product in question would make other devices in the vicinity misbehave.

a1371 9y ago

The problem right now is that the tests are not rigorous enough, so they don't even need to do that. The regulation allows them to test the radiation level when the cellphone is 15mm from the body. If the cellphone is on the body without a gap, none of the flagship phones meet the safe level of radiation when they are broadcasting to a tower far away. Also, the radiation test only tests the size of an adult's body, so children, who will have a larger region of their body and head impacted, are missed from the test. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm69ik_Qdb8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm69ik_Qdb8

lucaspiller 9y ago

Unfortunately that appears to already be the case: http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-news/32170-netgear-suing-asus-for-wireless-hanky-panky http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-news/32170-... WiFi transmission power is almost always controlled by software, with no hardware limits. It’s very easy to override this and transmit above the legal limit, to the point where you could potentially damage the hardware itself.

Alex3917 9y ago

> I would be more worried about issues similar to the diesel gate scandal where manufacturers start forging radiation tests results. They already do. Part of the reason why government-funded tests are more likely to show that cell phones cause cancer is that there have been industry-funded tests that have placed the phones several inches away from the subject's body and put them in shielded cases.

lgats 9y ago

Hi, I'm no expert on the exact regulations, but I run fccid.io and have a pretty good idea of the process manufacturers go through. Although forgery of results would be possible, almost all testing is done by independent labs. It would be possible for the manufacturer to submit a "compliant" sample but then program the rest of the units to radiate differently. What I see most commonly are devices being sold without any FCC testing. All wireless devices sold in the USA should have certification but many new startups may not know the regulation around the industry (i.e. a kickstarter smart bike lock project might not take FCC certification into account and end up selling a few thousand devices before going belly up). Testing is often thousands of dollars so for a little-known startup they may just try to ride on the fact that their Aliexpress supplied Bluetooth chip "is FCC certified" (it's not). It's not always startups that are skirting the testing though, Bayer's Aleve Direct Therapy TENS bosts some invalid FCC IDs on the user manual. https://www.aleve.com/aleve-direct-therapy/how-it-works/ https://www.aleve.com/aleve-direct-therapy/how-it-works/ From what I've seen, there is little to no actual enforcement that goes on within this licensing space (but there is also a pretty high rate of compliance). The FCC has an outline from 2008 where they explain more of the compliance audit process: https://transition.fcc.gov/oet/ea/presentations/files/oct08/Oct_08-Audit_and_Compliance_Issues.pdf https://transition.fcc.gov/oet/ea/presentations/files/oct08/...

lgats 9y ago
Bonus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlEZ8Cj3YGk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlEZ8Cj3YGk Youtube video produced by mobile phone manufacturers.
revelation 9y ago
What are we talking about, basic CE cert EMI testing or in depth RF radio certification? Most kickstarter projects or companies in general don't do own RF design, they buy fully certified modules.
robocat 9y ago
> Although forgery of results would be possible However, testing is done by multiple independent countries, so for any significant effect something would be found.

TeMPOraL 9y ago

FWIW, I feel that any big violation of radiation limits would be quickly found out as the product in question would make other devices in the vicinity misbehave.