6 ms·

The sentiment on the street is to keep pushing forward and declare independence. The opposition to this rule is huge (there has been a new huge demostration tod

The sentiment on the street is to keep pushing forward and declare independence. The opposition to this rule is huge (there has been a new huge demostration today). If this happens civil disobedience will grow. There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), but we won't obey what comes from Madrid.

Findeton 9y ago
According to a poll from a Catalan newspaper [0] released yesterday, 68% of Catalans prefer regional elections versus an unilateral independence declaration. [0] http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20171020/encuesta-cataluna-6368599 http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20171020/encuesta-cat...
- JaumeGreen 9y ago
  Thanks for the link, didn't know that. Nonetheless I find that most sources lack my trust. There's campaigning from both sides, but the unionists have a huge influence on all the national media. There's also the big probability that some new elections will have the effect to provide a new Catalan parliament with the same number (at least) of pro-independence elected members. Then that would "solve" nothing.
notspanishflu 9y ago
That street must be Sesame Street. Seriously now. The catalan goverment is acting illegally, against Spanish and Catalan law. What do you expect? The Spanish government must apply the law.
- JaumeGreen 9y ago
  They should start with all the investigated and condemned politicians (yes, including Pujol). Those are part of the reasons to wanting to leave.
- drudru11 9y ago
  At one time these little colonies in America acted illegally. They wanted representation with their taxation.
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    Catalonia has never been a colony.
    - yellowapple 9y ago
      So?
      - notspanishflu 9y ago
        So what?
- product50 9y ago
  Exactly my sentiments. What is the point of the constitution if one of the country's region starts disobeying and unilaterally declare independence? These are kind of disobediences which the Spanish government must fight - even if they lose.
  - golangnews 9y ago
    Government, and law, is by consent. It is not immutable, universal or objective, and if it loses the consent of a majority the social contract is broken.
    - notspanishflu 9y ago
      But the majority support the current law. The actions of the Spanish government are supported by right wing (PP), left wing (PSOE), and center wing (Ciudadanos).
  - ardit33 9y ago
    Communism/Socialism, was part of the constitution on most of the eastern European countries, and it didn't make it right. People rose against, somewhere peacefully and somewhere violently, it and it is not anymore. Those countries are much better off now. Constitutions often can be unjust, at time to time they get thrown away/re-rwitten.
    - notspanishflu 9y ago
      I think you have a conceptual problem because you're mixing the basics. We are talking about democratic constitutions, quite different from legal texts from totalitarian regimes.
- syshum 9y ago
  When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
craftyguy 9y ago
> There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), So it'll be a massacre? I don't believe that everyone owning firearms is even remotely close to the answer, but nations get super fucking stupid and desperate when folks try to break away from them, even if the break away process is democratic and peaceful.
- cnlevy 9y ago
  Rajoy is not Assad. He knows there are more effective methods than just shooting at demonstrators
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
kobeya 9y ago
> There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns) Myanmar has gun controls too. That’s really working out for its populace /s The ignorance and naïveté in this statement is astounding.
avar 9y ago
> We are peaceful people and have no guns. You might be peaceful, but according to Wikipedia Spain has 10.4 guns for every 100 people[1]. You're either entirely wrong, or Catalonia is an extreme statistical outlier when it comes to gun ownership in Spain. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_c...
- macspoofing 9y ago
  What does one have to do with the other?
pjc50 9y ago
> There won't be a civil war It's increasingly clear that the only two possible outcomes are either abandoning the idea altogether (possibly with an overall reduction in autonomy or proscription of the pro-independence parties); or violence. You can see even in this thread that nobody in the rest of Spain is even going to consider the possibility of peaceful secession. It's going to end up like 70s Belfast if people go down this route.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  No, the secessionists movement is deeply fueled with public funds. Now that Spanish government is going to control that, you can expect way less secessionists support.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    How much would you bet on that?
    - notspanishflu 9y ago
      I don't bet but if you're interested in betting, I saw a thread in Reddit where people are betting 'reddit gold'.
    - narag 9y ago
      I wouldn't bet a cent, not because his reasoning is wrong, but because the premise is wrong. The government doesn't control the main propaganda source: public education. That was transferred to comunidades autónomas more than 30 years ago and nationalists have used it to brainwash people. Did you know that it's impossible to have your children study in Spanish at public schools... in Spain? There were sentences from the Supreme Court and Tribunal Constitucional condemning this situation. Regional government ignored them and central governments did nothing for decades. Other propaganda sources are not going to be controled either. There are a couple of associations, the ones whose leaders are now jailed, that play a central role and, unless illegalized (that I seriously doubt will happen) will still be receiving lots of money from the very same State that they're fighting. Why? Because cutting the financing would mean reforming laws that allow national parties to give money to their own fundations in other parts of Spain. Public funded tv and radio would get new heads, but replacing the fanatics that produce the contents would need dismantling them, that most likely won't happen either. Do you know why this situation seems so confusing? Because spanish governments have done nothing for a very long time. This has allowed nationalists to create the ilusion that they're really almost independent and they only need a little push to get there. Then our current prime minister is known for its "do nothing until there's no other option" style, that made the thugs think it's the moment to make their move.
pipio21 9y ago
The sentiment in the Street by Independentists. I was in Barcelona 4 days ago. At least 25% of the people there is clearly not independentist. So stop talking the "sentiment in the street" like there is only one "Poble" in Catalunia that wants independence. If there is a fight it is not going to be against Madrid, but Catalans over Catalans.
- JaumeGreen 9y ago
  With "the sentiment on the street" I'm referring to the demostrations. Most are pro-independence, and they are always full of people. Unionists are few and with not that many people (except the one on the 8th of October). The "the fight will be catalan VS catalan" is an unionist mantra. People want to vote, not fight. Unionists would love an armed or belligerent pro-independence group, so they could repress us while giving the illusion of being right. That's why our movement will be pacifist.
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    >Unionists are few and with not that many people (except the one on the 8th of October). Anti-secession supporters has been afraid of Catalan government. Not anymore. >Unionists would love an armed or belligerent pro-independence group No, that's BS. By the way, such group has existed before (Terra Lliure) and nothing changed.
peter-m80 9y ago
I'm catalan and I don't want Independence.
bassman9000 9y ago
we won't obey what comes from Madrid The Constitution, you mean? Good luck when, in your newly forged Republic, some citizens don't want to obey the Rule of Law, because we won't obey what comes from Barcelona

Findeton 9y ago

According to a poll from a Catalan newspaper [0] released yesterday, 68% of Catalans prefer regional elections versus an unilateral independence declaration. [0] http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20171020/encuesta-cataluna-6368599 http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20171020/encuesta-cat...

JaumeGreen 9y ago
Thanks for the link, didn't know that. Nonetheless I find that most sources lack my trust. There's campaigning from both sides, but the unionists have a huge influence on all the national media. There's also the big probability that some new elections will have the effect to provide a new Catalan parliament with the same number (at least) of pro-independence elected members. Then that would "solve" nothing.

notspanishflu 9y ago

That street must be Sesame Street. Seriously now. The catalan goverment is acting illegally, against Spanish and Catalan law. What do you expect? The Spanish government must apply the law.

JaumeGreen 9y ago
They should start with all the investigated and condemned politicians (yes, including Pujol). Those are part of the reasons to wanting to leave.
drudru11 9y ago
At one time these little colonies in America acted illegally. They wanted representation with their taxation.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  Catalonia has never been a colony.
  - yellowapple 9y ago
    So?
    - notspanishflu 9y ago
      So what?
product50 9y ago
Exactly my sentiments. What is the point of the constitution if one of the country's region starts disobeying and unilaterally declare independence? These are kind of disobediences which the Spanish government must fight - even if they lose.
- golangnews 9y ago
  Government, and law, is by consent. It is not immutable, universal or objective, and if it loses the consent of a majority the social contract is broken.
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    But the majority support the current law. The actions of the Spanish government are supported by right wing (PP), left wing (PSOE), and center wing (Ciudadanos).
- ardit33 9y ago
  Communism/Socialism, was part of the constitution on most of the eastern European countries, and it didn't make it right. People rose against, somewhere peacefully and somewhere violently, it and it is not anymore. Those countries are much better off now. Constitutions often can be unjust, at time to time they get thrown away/re-rwitten.
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    I think you have a conceptual problem because you're mixing the basics. We are talking about democratic constitutions, quite different from legal texts from totalitarian regimes.
syshum 9y ago
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

craftyguy 9y ago

> There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), So it'll be a massacre? I don't believe that everyone owning firearms is even remotely close to the answer, but nations get super fucking stupid and desperate when folks try to break away from them, even if the break away process is democratic and peaceful.

cnlevy 9y ago
Rajoy is not Assad. He knows there are more effective methods than just shooting at demonstrators
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

kobeya 9y ago

> There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns) Myanmar has gun controls too. That’s really working out for its populace /s The ignorance and naïveté in this statement is astounding.

avar 9y ago

> We are peaceful people and have no guns. You might be peaceful, but according to Wikipedia Spain has 10.4 guns for every 100 people[1]. You're either entirely wrong, or Catalonia is an extreme statistical outlier when it comes to gun ownership in Spain. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_c...

macspoofing 9y ago
What does one have to do with the other?

pjc50 9y ago

> There won't be a civil war It's increasingly clear that the only two possible outcomes are either abandoning the idea altogether (possibly with an overall reduction in autonomy or proscription of the pro-independence parties); or violence. You can see even in this thread that nobody in the rest of Spain is even going to consider the possibility of peaceful secession. It's going to end up like 70s Belfast if people go down this route.

notspanishflu 9y ago
No, the secessionists movement is deeply fueled with public funds. Now that Spanish government is going to control that, you can expect way less secessionists support.
- icebraining 9y ago
  How much would you bet on that?
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    I don't bet but if you're interested in betting, I saw a thread in Reddit where people are betting 'reddit gold'.
  - narag 9y ago
    I wouldn't bet a cent, not because his reasoning is wrong, but because the premise is wrong. The government doesn't control the main propaganda source: public education. That was transferred to comunidades autónomas more than 30 years ago and nationalists have used it to brainwash people. Did you know that it's impossible to have your children study in Spanish at public schools... in Spain? There were sentences from the Supreme Court and Tribunal Constitucional condemning this situation. Regional government ignored them and central governments did nothing for decades. Other propaganda sources are not going to be controled either. There are a couple of associations, the ones whose leaders are now jailed, that play a central role and, unless illegalized (that I seriously doubt will happen) will still be receiving lots of money from the very same State that they're fighting. Why? Because cutting the financing would mean reforming laws that allow national parties to give money to their own fundations in other parts of Spain. Public funded tv and radio would get new heads, but replacing the fanatics that produce the contents would need dismantling them, that most likely won't happen either. Do you know why this situation seems so confusing? Because spanish governments have done nothing for a very long time. This has allowed nationalists to create the ilusion that they're really almost independent and they only need a little push to get there. Then our current prime minister is known for its "do nothing until there's no other option" style, that made the thugs think it's the moment to make their move.

pipio21 9y ago

The sentiment in the Street by Independentists. I was in Barcelona 4 days ago. At least 25% of the people there is clearly not independentist. So stop talking the "sentiment in the street" like there is only one "Poble" in Catalunia that wants independence. If there is a fight it is not going to be against Madrid, but Catalans over Catalans.

JaumeGreen 9y ago
With "the sentiment on the street" I'm referring to the demostrations. Most are pro-independence, and they are always full of people. Unionists are few and with not that many people (except the one on the 8th of October). The "the fight will be catalan VS catalan" is an unionist mantra. People want to vote, not fight. Unionists would love an armed or belligerent pro-independence group, so they could repress us while giving the illusion of being right. That's why our movement will be pacifist.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  >Unionists are few and with not that many people (except the one on the 8th of October). Anti-secession supporters has been afraid of Catalan government. Not anymore. >Unionists would love an armed or belligerent pro-independence group No, that's BS. By the way, such group has existed before (Terra Lliure) and nothing changed.

peter-m80 9y ago

I'm catalan and I don't want Independence.

bassman9000 9y ago

we won't obey what comes from Madrid The Constitution, you mean? Good luck when, in your newly forged Republic, some citizens don't want to obey the Rule of Law, because we won't obey what comes from Barcelona