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Language is also about culture and identity. When you give up a language you also give up some of your identity and things you value. For instance I write and

Language is also about culture and identity. When you give up a language you also give up some of your identity and things you value. For instance I write and use english more than my native Norwegian, however I am highly ambivalent towards making english the national language of Norway. With english comes many ways of looking at the world. For instance for nordic people gender equality is important. I don’t like how the english language is used with respect to women. You got words such as “slut”, “slut shaming” which there are no equivalent to in Norwegian. There isn’t really any good way of describing a women as a slut. Just as there are no good words in english to describe a man as a slut. There are many Norwegian words I am fond of related to our shared values like “dugnad” which is about working togheter doing maintenance, repair, upgrades in your local community. There is no word for it in english because the tradition does not exist in the US or UK. It is something that genuinly worries me as I see shared scandinavian values gradually year after year getting erased and replaced with anglo-saxon values.

unabridged 9y ago
Slightly ironic since slut is thought to be derived from the Norwegian words sludd or slutr
- alephnil 9y ago
  Actually, the word it is derived from still exist in Norwegian (ludder), though it feel a bit archaic in modern Norwegian, and is much less used than "slut" is in English.
k__ 9y ago
True story, but I don't know if the goal of everyone being able to communicate is more important than culture. On the other hand, many europeans have no problem in speaking two to three languages, so making English the second language would preserve that culture?
- StavrosK 9y ago
  If you were going to "make" a language a second language, you'd probably want to go with a language less insane than English.
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    English is one of the most commonly spoken languages in the world, and it's the language of the country with the largest economy. It's also a germanic language, so even though it's probably tougher to learn than other languages, it wouldn't be as difficult as Mandarin.
    - StavrosK 9y ago
      > English is one of the most commonly spoken languages in the world For now. > and it's the language of the country with the largest economy. Also for now. > It's also a germanic language, so even though it's probably tougher to learn than other languages, it wouldn't be as difficult as Mandarin. I'm trying to avoid being snarky at the false dichotomy.
      - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
        > For now... Also for now. Why else would you learn a language? You wouldn't learn it for the past and you wouldn't learn it for the future. English is widely spoken right now, and so is useful to know. > I'm trying to avoid being snarky at the false dichotomy. I suppose I could have been more clear. Part of the utility of English is that it's spoken by the Western superpower, the US. By speaking English, that makes your country's economy interact with the US's economy easier. You could learn other superpowers' languages as well like China's and Russia's, but for other Germanic languages, it's much easier to learn English than Russian or Mandarin.
        schoen 9y ago
        Heh, I thought you were addressing a much more abstract consideration about the global average difficulty of learning languages based on both their relatedness to other languages and their internal complexities are irregularities (see my reply elsewhere in the thread). I didn't realize you were actually thinking more about economic and political considerations. Edit: I feel like many people do learn languages "for the past" or "for the future". For example, many people study ancient languages partly to learn about ancient cultures and ancient history, while many Mandarin learners in the U.S. through the 1990s and 2000s said one motivation was that "China is going to be more important in the future" or something to that effect.
TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
This cultural conflict is occurring in the United States as well. For various reasons, Spanish is becoming much more prevalent in certain parts of the country. While large chunks of the country try to take a multiculturalist approach and embrace the lingual and cultural change, other parts want to maintain their cultural and communal identity and have them integrate. It's actually causing quite a bit of conflict between areas with different approaches.
- mistermann 9y ago
  This is becoming an increasingly large problem in Canada as well with Chinese, especially with ethnic enclaves and lack of cultural integration. And any discussion similar to that of the parent comment to yours would be considered near hate speech by most people under 35, particularly those who are university educated.
  - averagewall 9y ago
    I meet your age limit so I hope I can ask why is it a problem to have ethnic enclaves? Are they not doing fine in their own communities living their own lifestyles?
    - mistermann 9y ago
      Step 1 in these discussions is, do you believe culture represents something real or imaginary.
      - averagewall 9y ago
        Real in the sense that it's how people interact. I think cultures evolve so people can co-exist effectively, but they're also full of random useless or harmful behaviours that might be holdovers from when they used to be useful.
        mistermann 9y ago
tomjen3 9y ago
English has never been shy to import words. And I would argue that 'barn raising' is an example of something similar (that is, it is implicit that the barn raising requires the neighbors help and happens in the community). I do not know Norweigian well enough, but in Denmark we have 'so' (meaning sow), which is not quite the same as 'slut' (it is basically the same as 'bitch') but in something that is only used against women. 'svin' (pig) would be a non-gendered insult. I guess the closest thing to slut would be 'luder' (lit whore), also a gendered insult.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
averagewall 9y ago
If that's your culture, you'll find a way to express it in whatever language you use. If it's not your culture anymore - maybe only your parents and beyond, then you're already lost it, despite having the language. My point is that culture exists or dies on its own. It doesn't depend on a language.
david-gpu 9y ago
Language and culture should not be conflated. A farmer in New Zealand, a surfer in Hawaii, a professor in New York and an oil rigger in Alberta all speak the same language but have vastly different cultures. As for lost nuances, loan words are constantly adopted when people find them valuable enough to them, so nothing important needs to be lost.
- realusername 9y ago
  The anglosphere still shares a LOT of common culture, way more than you think.
  - kbp 9y ago
    This is entirely true, but it's also worth mentioning that English varies more than it gets credit for, too. Plenty of vocabulary, expressions, and even grammar differ by dialect, and if one isn't making an effort to speak in standard English a fair bit of what they say won't be understood by the whole anglosphere.
- Grustaf 9y ago
  "we have really everything in common with America nowadays, except, of course, language" -Oscar Wilde
CalRobert 9y ago
What can an anglo-saxon who would like to emulate more Scandinavian values do?
- kwhitefoot 9y ago
  Be more cooperative, more trusting, and more trustworthy, see the best in people, etc. Of course I don't know you so please don't take this as meaning that you personally are not trustworthy. My point is that, in the UK for instance, there seems to be an air of distrust in some English speaking communities that seems not to exist in Norway, at least not to the same degree. I doubt it has much to do with the language. I was born in and grew up in the UK (1955 to 1985) and I'm quite sure that the town where I grew up was then much more similar to the place I now live in than it is now. The country has changed. Of course, I have been outside the flow of things in the UK for thirty years so my view of the current situation probably owes a little too much to the media than it should, so take the specifics with a pinch of salt.
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
Norwegian has Norway. Not every culture has itself to blame for its downfall. But competition isn’t a bad way, on average, to select.

unabridged 9y ago

Slightly ironic since slut is thought to be derived from the Norwegian words sludd or slutr

alephnil 9y ago
Actually, the word it is derived from still exist in Norwegian (ludder), though it feel a bit archaic in modern Norwegian, and is much less used than "slut" is in English.

k__ 9y ago

True story, but I don't know if the goal of everyone being able to communicate is more important than culture. On the other hand, many europeans have no problem in speaking two to three languages, so making English the second language would preserve that culture?

StavrosK 9y ago
If you were going to "make" a language a second language, you'd probably want to go with a language less insane than English.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  English is one of the most commonly spoken languages in the world, and it's the language of the country with the largest economy. It's also a germanic language, so even though it's probably tougher to learn than other languages, it wouldn't be as difficult as Mandarin.
  - StavrosK 9y ago
    > English is one of the most commonly spoken languages in the world For now. > and it's the language of the country with the largest economy. Also for now. > It's also a germanic language, so even though it's probably tougher to learn than other languages, it wouldn't be as difficult as Mandarin. I'm trying to avoid being snarky at the false dichotomy.
    - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
      > For now... Also for now. Why else would you learn a language? You wouldn't learn it for the past and you wouldn't learn it for the future. English is widely spoken right now, and so is useful to know. > I'm trying to avoid being snarky at the false dichotomy. I suppose I could have been more clear. Part of the utility of English is that it's spoken by the Western superpower, the US. By speaking English, that makes your country's economy interact with the US's economy easier. You could learn other superpowers' languages as well like China's and Russia's, but for other Germanic languages, it's much easier to learn English than Russian or Mandarin.
      - schoen 9y ago
        Heh, I thought you were addressing a much more abstract consideration about the global average difficulty of learning languages based on both their relatedness to other languages and their internal complexities are irregularities (see my reply elsewhere in the thread). I didn't realize you were actually thinking more about economic and political considerations. Edit: I feel like many people do learn languages "for the past" or "for the future". For example, many people study ancient languages partly to learn about ancient cultures and ancient history, while many Mandarin learners in the U.S. through the 1990s and 2000s said one motivation was that "China is going to be more important in the future" or something to that effect.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago

This cultural conflict is occurring in the United States as well. For various reasons, Spanish is becoming much more prevalent in certain parts of the country. While large chunks of the country try to take a multiculturalist approach and embrace the lingual and cultural change, other parts want to maintain their cultural and communal identity and have them integrate. It's actually causing quite a bit of conflict between areas with different approaches.

mistermann 9y ago
This is becoming an increasingly large problem in Canada as well with Chinese, especially with ethnic enclaves and lack of cultural integration. And any discussion similar to that of the parent comment to yours would be considered near hate speech by most people under 35, particularly those who are university educated.
- averagewall 9y ago
  I meet your age limit so I hope I can ask why is it a problem to have ethnic enclaves? Are they not doing fine in their own communities living their own lifestyles?
  - mistermann 9y ago
    Step 1 in these discussions is, do you believe culture represents something real or imaginary.
    - averagewall 9y ago
      Real in the sense that it's how people interact. I think cultures evolve so people can co-exist effectively, but they're also full of random useless or harmful behaviours that might be holdovers from when they used to be useful.
      - mistermann 9y ago

tomjen3 9y ago

English has never been shy to import words. And I would argue that 'barn raising' is an example of something similar (that is, it is implicit that the barn raising requires the neighbors help and happens in the community). I do not know Norweigian well enough, but in Denmark we have 'so' (meaning sow), which is not quite the same as 'slut' (it is basically the same as 'bitch') but in something that is only used against women. 'svin' (pig) would be a non-gendered insult. I guess the closest thing to slut would be 'luder' (lit whore), also a gendered insult.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

averagewall 9y ago

If that's your culture, you'll find a way to express it in whatever language you use. If it's not your culture anymore - maybe only your parents and beyond, then you're already lost it, despite having the language. My point is that culture exists or dies on its own. It doesn't depend on a language.

david-gpu 9y ago

Language and culture should not be conflated. A farmer in New Zealand, a surfer in Hawaii, a professor in New York and an oil rigger in Alberta all speak the same language but have vastly different cultures. As for lost nuances, loan words are constantly adopted when people find them valuable enough to them, so nothing important needs to be lost.

realusername 9y ago
The anglosphere still shares a LOT of common culture, way more than you think.
- kbp 9y ago
  This is entirely true, but it's also worth mentioning that English varies more than it gets credit for, too. Plenty of vocabulary, expressions, and even grammar differ by dialect, and if one isn't making an effort to speak in standard English a fair bit of what they say won't be understood by the whole anglosphere.
Grustaf 9y ago
"we have really everything in common with America nowadays, except, of course, language" -Oscar Wilde

CalRobert 9y ago

What can an anglo-saxon who would like to emulate more Scandinavian values do?

kwhitefoot 9y ago
Be more cooperative, more trusting, and more trustworthy, see the best in people, etc. Of course I don't know you so please don't take this as meaning that you personally are not trustworthy. My point is that, in the UK for instance, there seems to be an air of distrust in some English speaking communities that seems not to exist in Norway, at least not to the same degree. I doubt it has much to do with the language. I was born in and grew up in the UK (1955 to 1985) and I'm quite sure that the town where I grew up was then much more similar to the place I now live in than it is now. The country has changed. Of course, I have been outside the flow of things in the UK for thirty years so my view of the current situation probably owes a little too much to the media than it should, so take the specifics with a pinch of salt.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

Norwegian has Norway. Not every culture has itself to blame for its downfall. But competition isn’t a bad way, on average, to select.