4 ms·

Compensating carbon emissions

39 points by bramv 9y ago

vogon_laureate 9y ago
This sounds like a naive response to a fundamentally flawed system. The EU ETS has been a failure from the beginning. Commoditising pollution just leads to more abstractions and opportunities for fraud, laundering and lack of accountability. It takes the onus away from government regulation and puts it in the hands of the market whereby those most responsible for pollution already have enormous agency to influence market outcomes in their favour.
- ohthehugemanate 9y ago
  Are you implying that massive industrial interests DON'T have the capability to buy special political influence?
  - vogon_laureate 9y ago
    Of course they do, but ceding full control directly to them is hardly the best counter to that.
Heliosmaster 9y ago
I would like instead to fund reforestation projects, which can have a positive impact also on the wildlife and the economy of certain regions, while capturing CO2
- mlinksva 9y ago
  I would like to instead fund advocacy against carbon subsidies/for carbon taxes.
a_imho 9y ago
What do I pay for? As a non-profit organization, we don’t make profit on our operations. All the payments we receive go directly to deleting emission allowances. The price we charge you for deleting one emission allowance consists of 3 parts: 1. The price of the emission allowance. We buy emission allowances upfront and uses the price that was paid for it. Therefore, the price of an emission allowance might be different than the spot price at the time that you buy it. 2. A transaction fee of 15%. We use the transaction fee to cover operational costs (such as web hosting and payment systems). 3. VAT of 21%, imposed by the Belgian government.
- marvin 9y ago
  The VAT is the big problem here; initiatives such as this one should not pay taxes as long as they are non-profit.
wz1000 9y ago
If companies can't pollute in the EU, that just means the pollution happens elsewhere.
hannob 9y ago
This seems to be based upon the idea that the EU ETS system works. Which it doesn't. Since many years. Far too many emission certificates have been given out for free to industries. And there are plenty of loopholes in the system.
- tom_mellior 9y ago
  > Far too many emission certificates have been given out for free to industries. My understanding was that that was only in the beginning, when the system was introduced. Businesses that previously polluted for free could continue to pollute for free for a transitional period. I may be wrong. > And there are plenty of loopholes in the system. Do you have a good source to read up on this?
  - arekkas 9y ago
    If you speak German, this Wikipedia article explains the issues really well: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU-Emissionshandel https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU-Emissionshandel Primary takeaways: 1. Price is volatile, depending on weather and season 2. For 2°C goal, the price per metric ton should be $50 but it's only €5.5 3. Politics - elections, growth, and other factors play a significant role in setting cap and price.
    - tom_mellior 9y ago
      > Price is volatile, depending on weather and season Not sure why you think that is a problem. Emissions depend on weather and season. It would not be a market if it didn't react to relevant aspects of reality. > price per metric ton should be $50 There are too many certificates, agreed. I wasn't surprised to read that Parliament advocated stricter rules. > Politics - elections, growth, and other factors play a significant role in setting cap and price. I don't find that in the article. It does say that the Commission screwed us over by empting airlines, but well, that's what we expect from the Commission. Anyway, so far I'm not convinced about the alleged loopholes mentioned above. The system doesn't work as an efficient market, that is true. As far as I can tell, that could be fixed by stricter caps.
marvin 9y ago
I really like this service; if CO2 emissions can actually be reduced simply by paying this extra amount, it is fantastic. But is it really this simple? I arrived at ~120€ per year to offset all my CO2 emissions. (I live in a small apartment, don't use a car but fly quite a lot). If this extra cost is all it takes, we should increase taxes accordingly, at once. I would think that the price of producing all my goods and services with only sustainable energy (all the way to the raw materials of the plane I fly) is a significant multiple of this number. Has anyone done the calculation to arrive at a more specific number?
- comicjk 9y ago
  The amount is low now because of low-hanging fruit: easy CO2 mitigations that can only be done a few times. If tens of millions of people bought offsets, all the easy opportunities would be exhausted and the marginal ton of CO2 would be much more expensive. That's the theory, anyway. We haven't tried it - currently, demand is limited even at these low offset prices.
funkfeuer 9y ago
copycat of thecompensators.org who have been active for 10 years now..
alexandercrohde 9y ago
Why all the defeatism? Expressing frustration at the status quo is one thing, but I don't see how expressing a negative attitude toward incremental progress can be seen as more helpful than holding your tongue.

39 points by bramv 9y ago

This sounds like a naive response to a fundamentally flawed system. The EU ETS has been a failure from the beginning. Commoditising pollution just leads to more abstractions and opportunities for fraud, laundering and lack of accountability. It takes the onus away from government regulation and puts it in the hands of the market whereby those most responsible for pollution already have enormous agency to influence market outcomes in their favour.

ohthehugemanate 9y ago
Are you implying that massive industrial interests DON'T have the capability to buy special political influence?
- vogon_laureate 9y ago
  Of course they do, but ceding full control directly to them is hardly the best counter to that.

Heliosmaster 9y ago

I would like instead to fund reforestation projects, which can have a positive impact also on the wildlife and the economy of certain regions, while capturing CO2

mlinksva 9y ago
I would like to instead fund advocacy against carbon subsidies/for carbon taxes.

a_imho 9y ago

What do I pay for? As a non-profit organization, we don’t make profit on our operations. All the payments we receive go directly to deleting emission allowances. The price we charge you for deleting one emission allowance consists of 3 parts: 1. The price of the emission allowance. We buy emission allowances upfront and uses the price that was paid for it. Therefore, the price of an emission allowance might be different than the spot price at the time that you buy it. 2. A transaction fee of 15%. We use the transaction fee to cover operational costs (such as web hosting and payment systems). 3. VAT of 21%, imposed by the Belgian government.

marvin 9y ago
The VAT is the big problem here; initiatives such as this one should not pay taxes as long as they are non-profit.

wz1000 9y ago

If companies can't pollute in the EU, that just means the pollution happens elsewhere.

hannob 9y ago

This seems to be based upon the idea that the EU ETS system works. Which it doesn't. Since many years. Far too many emission certificates have been given out for free to industries. And there are plenty of loopholes in the system.

tom_mellior 9y ago
> Far too many emission certificates have been given out for free to industries. My understanding was that that was only in the beginning, when the system was introduced. Businesses that previously polluted for free could continue to pollute for free for a transitional period. I may be wrong. > And there are plenty of loopholes in the system. Do you have a good source to read up on this?
- arekkas 9y ago
  If you speak German, this Wikipedia article explains the issues really well: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU-Emissionshandel https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU-Emissionshandel Primary takeaways: 1. Price is volatile, depending on weather and season 2. For 2°C goal, the price per metric ton should be $50 but it's only €5.5 3. Politics - elections, growth, and other factors play a significant role in setting cap and price.
  - tom_mellior 9y ago
    > Price is volatile, depending on weather and season Not sure why you think that is a problem. Emissions depend on weather and season. It would not be a market if it didn't react to relevant aspects of reality. > price per metric ton should be $50 There are too many certificates, agreed. I wasn't surprised to read that Parliament advocated stricter rules. > Politics - elections, growth, and other factors play a significant role in setting cap and price. I don't find that in the article. It does say that the Commission screwed us over by empting airlines, but well, that's what we expect from the Commission. Anyway, so far I'm not convinced about the alleged loopholes mentioned above. The system doesn't work as an efficient market, that is true. As far as I can tell, that could be fixed by stricter caps.

marvin 9y ago

I really like this service; if CO2 emissions can actually be reduced simply by paying this extra amount, it is fantastic. But is it really this simple? I arrived at ~120€ per year to offset all my CO2 emissions. (I live in a small apartment, don't use a car but fly quite a lot). If this extra cost is all it takes, we should increase taxes accordingly, at once. I would think that the price of producing all my goods and services with only sustainable energy (all the way to the raw materials of the plane I fly) is a significant multiple of this number. Has anyone done the calculation to arrive at a more specific number?

comicjk 9y ago
The amount is low now because of low-hanging fruit: easy CO2 mitigations that can only be done a few times. If tens of millions of people bought offsets, all the easy opportunities would be exhausted and the marginal ton of CO2 would be much more expensive. That's the theory, anyway. We haven't tried it - currently, demand is limited even at these low offset prices.

funkfeuer 9y ago

copycat of thecompensators.org who have been active for 10 years now..

alexandercrohde 9y ago

Why all the defeatism? Expressing frustration at the status quo is one thing, but I don't see how expressing a negative attitude toward incremental progress can be seen as more helpful than holding your tongue.