6 ms·

Turning on Project Loon in Puerto Rico

231 points by troydavis 9y ago

kakarot 9y ago
Haven't seen Loon in the headlines for a while. This is really cool. In hindsight, disaster relief seems like such an obvious application for a technology like Loon. Google could catch some serious tax breaks as well as goodwill if they worked out deals for providing impromptu connectivity services in disaster zones.
- phegde 9y ago
  Yea, loon was unheard for a while, together with tesla both can get Puerto Rico back online ASAP.
  - rz2k 9y ago
    Is SolarCity considered a quicker replacement to the damaged power grid and supply? That a truck can carry far more energy in the form of petroleum than it can in the form of batteries is one of the arguments against wasting fossil fuels on non-extreme conditions, like regular transportation and non-emergency electric power generation. For Puerto Rico right now cheap, even if relatively inefficient, generators and lots of fuel seems like a good way to help in the very short term. Military surplus diesel generators, for example, are really cheap for how much power they can output with enough fuel.
    - ben_w 9y ago
      They aren’t directly comparable. You ship a truckload of PV and once installed it keeps providing daytime power without further delivery; you ship a battery to somwhere with PV and that power can now be made in the day and used at night, every day/night for a few years. Even without batteries, shipping PV will at least keep the freezers cold (and food fresh).
modeless 9y ago
Check out the balloon flight paths by clicking on them https://www.flightradar24.com/18.22,-66.59/8 https://www.flightradar24.com/18.22,-66.59/8
- arosier 9y ago
  That's amazing! Check out the difference in altitude compared to the commercial jets flying near-by: Boeing 767-316 - Alt: 33,000 ft Balloon - Alt: 61,900 ft
  - smhg 9y ago
    In meters: Boeing 767-316 - Alt: 10058 m Balloon - Alt: 18867 m
    - jdavis703 9y ago
      Aeronautical measures are generally done in feet, even outside the U.S.
      - anticodon 9y ago
        No, it's not true.
        rainbowmverse 9y ago
        Dueling assertions aren't going to go anywhere.
        sbierwagen 9y ago
        Sorry, the only countries that specify altitude in metres for aviation purposes are Russia, China and North Korea-- and Russia is switching to feet this year: http://aerosavvy.com/metric-imperial/ http://aerosavvy.com/metric-imperial/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_level
- Shank 9y ago
arosier 9y ago
Definitely the most interesting part of this project in my opinion. > This is the first time we have used our new machine learning powered algorithms to keep balloons clustered over Puerto Rico, so we’re still learning how best to do this. As we get more familiar with the constantly shifting winds in this region, we hope to keep the balloons over areas where connectivity is needed for as long as possible. https://blog.x.company/how-project-loons-smart-software-learned-to-sail-the-winds-ec904e6d08c https://blog.x.company/how-project-loons-smart-software-lear... Apparently, back in 2016 they launched the balloons from Puerto Pico to do their first test of the autopilot system in Peru. Now they are flying the balloons from Nevada to implement it in Puerto Rico. > we had figured out how to cluster balloons in teams, dancing in small loops on the stratospheric winds, over a particular region.
- slackingoff2017 9y ago
  This is insane. They're using ML to predict wind speeds at different altitudes and how to move the balloons with their various speed and power restrictions to optimize on-the-ground connectivity while maintaining close enough clusters and decent backhaul. Incredible.
  - ballooney 9y ago
    To be clear, it's not so much they are using ML to predict wind speeds at different altitudes; they use a forecast model like everyone else for that. The clever bit is being able to control your altitude such that you find favorable wind-altitude tuples to be in to keep you generally in one spot over days/weeks. It's sort of like what ocean/circumnavigating sailors do but in a higher dimensional space, both literally and in your search algorithm. Fascinating stuff.
    - oh_sigh 9y ago
      The loons don't need to stay in one spot - for example, two loons could rotate around a common center point and provide good service. Allowing the loons to wander while optimizing ground connectivity is harder computationally but makes it possible to maintain good connections even if the wind isn't entirely cooperating.
fuckgoogle9 9y ago
Oh wow! So just like that Puerto Rico has clean drinking water? Neat!
pitaa 9y ago
That is pretty awesome. I didn't realize the scale and complexity of what they were doing. When I first heard reference to this, I for some reason assumed that these were simple tethered balloons, not stratospheric swarms of AI balloons!
jgrahamc 9y ago
When I did my high altitude balloon I was struck by the changing wind directions at different altitudes. In this blog there's a picture of the actual drifting flight path: http://blog.jgc.org/2011/04/gaga-1-flight.html http://blog.jgc.org/2011/04/gaga-1-flight.html This flight path was pretty closely predicted 48 hours before using NOAA predicted wind data (see this blog: http://blog.jgc.org/2011/04/gaga-1-looking-good-for-sunday.html http://blog.jgc.org/2011/04/gaga-1-looking-good-for-sunday.h...). The difference in size between the two 'loops' is caused by a slow ascent and rapid descent. If I'd had altitude control (like Loon) and uploaded data on wind speed it would have been possible to make the balloon hang around a target area.
- dmix 9y ago
  That's interesting, it seemed like the most challenging problem to solve given the balloons are always moving. They mention using machine learning to perfect the coverage: > This is the first time we have used our new machine learning powered algorithms to keep balloons clustered over Puerto Rico, so we’re still learning how best to do this. As we get more familiar with the constantly shifting winds in this region, we hope to keep the balloons over areas where connectivity is needed for as long as possible.
TheAceOfHearts 9y ago
AFAIK, many other big-name companies have been donating manpower and resources to help get PR back on its feet. What makes this announcement any more noteworthy? I'd get it if it included a bit more information, but the blog post reads as marketing fluff. Does anyone know of any reliable sources showing in-depth sample numbers from previous deployments? I'd be really interested in getting an idea of what area size these balloons could cover, for how long it can be reliably maintained over an area, and their expected throughput. The Helping out in Peru [0] post has a bit of info, but it's very light on details. If anyone is familiarized with these industries, I'd love to read up on the kinds of challenges faced with getting something like this deployed. Looking at it from an outsider's perspective, being without connectivity for over a month seems like a pretty long time. It's great that Project Loon is seeing improvements in their deployment time, but the article doesn't shed any light on the process, which is rather disappointing. [0] https://blog.x.company/helping-out-in-peru-9e5a84839fd2 https://blog.x.company/helping-out-in-peru-9e5a84839fd2
- melling 9y ago
  It’s newsworthy because an experimental Google X project is being used to solve a real world problem. The US military might spend a billion dollars in aid, for example, but the world won’t be any different in the future, beyond the lives directly impacted, because of this.
- jpm_sd 9y ago
  You are definitely asking the right questions. It is way too easy for Google to declare victory here without any meaningful level of service delivered. "At least one of the balloons managed to station keep for a while" =/= "isolated people in Puerto Rico were actually able to communicate with the outside world"
- jpm_sd 9y ago
  So far, the balloons are not doing a great job staying in the service area: (from flightradar24 on 2017-10-23) https://imgur.com/FdqTrQ7 https://imgur.com/FdqTrQ7
Ice_cream_suit 9y ago
"The 100G program is exploring high-order modulation and spatial multiplexing techniques to achieve the 100 Gb/s capacity at ranges of 200 km air-to-air and 100 km air-to-ground from a high-altitude (e.g. 60,000 ft.) aerial platform. The 100G program is developing the technologies and system concepts to project fiber optic class 100 Gb/s capacity via airborne data links anywhere within the area of responsibility (AOR). Modern expeditionary military missions generate and exchange massive amounts of data that are used to produce situational awareness and guide decision-making. Much of the data must travel long distances along backbone communications networks composed of high-capacity links that interconnect command centers. While optical fiber services can provide a multi-gigabit data backbone in many parts of the world, modern expeditionary forces require a similar capability in places where fiber access does not exist. SATCOM services can provide some capacity to remote areas, but cannot provide the capacity needed to support the amount of data generated by emerging ISR systems." https://www.darpa.mil/program/100-gb-s-rf-backbone https://www.darpa.mil/program/100-gb-s-rf-backbone
msh 9y ago
Hmm what kind of signal are they sending out? LTE/wifi?
- jpm_sd 9y ago
  It's a custom LTE base station.
rgbrenner 9y ago
Im sure there are a few people who will find Loon's service useful.. but 80% are without power, so they're mostly not going to use internet anyway -- no power means cell phones cant be charged, etc. Some have generators, but are they able to get fuel? Emergency personnel cant even get fuel to deliver food and medicine. Internet and cell service is being restored at a similar rate to power.. probably because these two depend on each other. So it seems like this is only really useful to people traveling from one of the areas with power to an area without power (first responders, workers doing repairs, etc). Still a good use case for Loon though.
- pmorici 9y ago
  You can easily charge a small device like a phone off solar panels, esp. in Puerto Rico a place known for sun.
  - rgbrenner 9y ago
    good point. I wonder how many people had portable solar panels before the hurricanes though. It's not like they could order it after the hurricane. And the solar panels on people's houses are probably damaged... two hurricanes would do that.
    - pmorici 9y ago
      logistics of distributing small solar panels are almost certainly easier than generators + having to resupply them with fuel regularly.
      - rgbrenner 9y ago
        sure.. but they have issues distributing food and medicine.. do you really think they're distributing a lot of solar panels?
        pmorici 9y ago
        If they decided they needed to get emergency power for radio communications to people and the choices were between generators w/ a supply of gas or portable solar charging kits I know which I would choose.
tyingq 9y ago
Be nice if they could also airdrop some cheap already charged 2g phones.

231 points by troydavis 9y ago

Haven't seen Loon in the headlines for a while. This is really cool. In hindsight, disaster relief seems like such an obvious application for a technology like Loon. Google could catch some serious tax breaks as well as goodwill if they worked out deals for providing impromptu connectivity services in disaster zones.

phegde 9y ago
Yea, loon was unheard for a while, together with tesla both can get Puerto Rico back online ASAP.
- rz2k 9y ago
  Is SolarCity considered a quicker replacement to the damaged power grid and supply? That a truck can carry far more energy in the form of petroleum than it can in the form of batteries is one of the arguments against wasting fossil fuels on non-extreme conditions, like regular transportation and non-emergency electric power generation. For Puerto Rico right now cheap, even if relatively inefficient, generators and lots of fuel seems like a good way to help in the very short term. Military surplus diesel generators, for example, are really cheap for how much power they can output with enough fuel.
  - ben_w 9y ago
    They aren’t directly comparable. You ship a truckload of PV and once installed it keeps providing daytime power without further delivery; you ship a battery to somwhere with PV and that power can now be made in the day and used at night, every day/night for a few years. Even without batteries, shipping PV will at least keep the freezers cold (and food fresh).

modeless 9y ago

Check out the balloon flight paths by clicking on them https://www.flightradar24.com/18.22,-66.59/8 https://www.flightradar24.com/18.22,-66.59/8

arosier 9y ago
That's amazing! Check out the difference in altitude compared to the commercial jets flying near-by: Boeing 767-316 - Alt: 33,000 ft Balloon - Alt: 61,900 ft
- smhg 9y ago
  In meters: Boeing 767-316 - Alt: 10058 m Balloon - Alt: 18867 m
  - jdavis703 9y ago
    Aeronautical measures are generally done in feet, even outside the U.S.
    - anticodon 9y ago
      No, it's not true.
      - rainbowmverse 9y ago
        Dueling assertions aren't going to go anywhere.
      - sbierwagen 9y ago
        Sorry, the only countries that specify altitude in metres for aviation purposes are Russia, China and North Korea-- and Russia is switching to feet this year: http://aerosavvy.com/metric-imperial/ http://aerosavvy.com/metric-imperial/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_level
Shank 9y ago

arosier 9y ago

Definitely the most interesting part of this project in my opinion. > This is the first time we have used our new machine learning powered algorithms to keep balloons clustered over Puerto Rico, so we’re still learning how best to do this. As we get more familiar with the constantly shifting winds in this region, we hope to keep the balloons over areas where connectivity is needed for as long as possible. https://blog.x.company/how-project-loons-smart-software-learned-to-sail-the-winds-ec904e6d08c https://blog.x.company/how-project-loons-smart-software-lear... Apparently, back in 2016 they launched the balloons from Puerto Pico to do their first test of the autopilot system in Peru. Now they are flying the balloons from Nevada to implement it in Puerto Rico. > we had figured out how to cluster balloons in teams, dancing in small loops on the stratospheric winds, over a particular region.

slackingoff2017 9y ago
This is insane. They're using ML to predict wind speeds at different altitudes and how to move the balloons with their various speed and power restrictions to optimize on-the-ground connectivity while maintaining close enough clusters and decent backhaul. Incredible.
- ballooney 9y ago
  To be clear, it's not so much they are using ML to predict wind speeds at different altitudes; they use a forecast model like everyone else for that. The clever bit is being able to control your altitude such that you find favorable wind-altitude tuples to be in to keep you generally in one spot over days/weeks. It's sort of like what ocean/circumnavigating sailors do but in a higher dimensional space, both literally and in your search algorithm. Fascinating stuff.
  - oh_sigh 9y ago
    The loons don't need to stay in one spot - for example, two loons could rotate around a common center point and provide good service. Allowing the loons to wander while optimizing ground connectivity is harder computationally but makes it possible to maintain good connections even if the wind isn't entirely cooperating.

fuckgoogle9 9y ago

Oh wow! So just like that Puerto Rico has clean drinking water? Neat!

pitaa 9y ago

That is pretty awesome. I didn't realize the scale and complexity of what they were doing. When I first heard reference to this, I for some reason assumed that these were simple tethered balloons, not stratospheric swarms of AI balloons!

jgrahamc 9y ago

When I did my high altitude balloon I was struck by the changing wind directions at different altitudes. In this blog there's a picture of the actual drifting flight path: http://blog.jgc.org/2011/04/gaga-1-flight.html http://blog.jgc.org/2011/04/gaga-1-flight.html This flight path was pretty closely predicted 48 hours before using NOAA predicted wind data (see this blog: http://blog.jgc.org/2011/04/gaga-1-looking-good-for-sunday.html http://blog.jgc.org/2011/04/gaga-1-looking-good-for-sunday.h...). The difference in size between the two 'loops' is caused by a slow ascent and rapid descent. If I'd had altitude control (like Loon) and uploaded data on wind speed it would have been possible to make the balloon hang around a target area.

dmix 9y ago
That's interesting, it seemed like the most challenging problem to solve given the balloons are always moving. They mention using machine learning to perfect the coverage: > This is the first time we have used our new machine learning powered algorithms to keep balloons clustered over Puerto Rico, so we’re still learning how best to do this. As we get more familiar with the constantly shifting winds in this region, we hope to keep the balloons over areas where connectivity is needed for as long as possible.

TheAceOfHearts 9y ago

AFAIK, many other big-name companies have been donating manpower and resources to help get PR back on its feet. What makes this announcement any more noteworthy? I'd get it if it included a bit more information, but the blog post reads as marketing fluff. Does anyone know of any reliable sources showing in-depth sample numbers from previous deployments? I'd be really interested in getting an idea of what area size these balloons could cover, for how long it can be reliably maintained over an area, and their expected throughput. The Helping out in Peru [0] post has a bit of info, but it's very light on details. If anyone is familiarized with these industries, I'd love to read up on the kinds of challenges faced with getting something like this deployed. Looking at it from an outsider's perspective, being without connectivity for over a month seems like a pretty long time. It's great that Project Loon is seeing improvements in their deployment time, but the article doesn't shed any light on the process, which is rather disappointing. [0] https://blog.x.company/helping-out-in-peru-9e5a84839fd2 https://blog.x.company/helping-out-in-peru-9e5a84839fd2

melling 9y ago
It’s newsworthy because an experimental Google X project is being used to solve a real world problem. The US military might spend a billion dollars in aid, for example, but the world won’t be any different in the future, beyond the lives directly impacted, because of this.
jpm_sd 9y ago
You are definitely asking the right questions. It is way too easy for Google to declare victory here without any meaningful level of service delivered. "At least one of the balloons managed to station keep for a while" =/= "isolated people in Puerto Rico were actually able to communicate with the outside world"
jpm_sd 9y ago
So far, the balloons are not doing a great job staying in the service area: (from flightradar24 on 2017-10-23) https://imgur.com/FdqTrQ7 https://imgur.com/FdqTrQ7

Ice_cream_suit 9y ago

"The 100G program is exploring high-order modulation and spatial multiplexing techniques to achieve the 100 Gb/s capacity at ranges of 200 km air-to-air and 100 km air-to-ground from a high-altitude (e.g. 60,000 ft.) aerial platform. The 100G program is developing the technologies and system concepts to project fiber optic class 100 Gb/s capacity via airborne data links anywhere within the area of responsibility (AOR). Modern expeditionary military missions generate and exchange massive amounts of data that are used to produce situational awareness and guide decision-making. Much of the data must travel long distances along backbone communications networks composed of high-capacity links that interconnect command centers. While optical fiber services can provide a multi-gigabit data backbone in many parts of the world, modern expeditionary forces require a similar capability in places where fiber access does not exist. SATCOM services can provide some capacity to remote areas, but cannot provide the capacity needed to support the amount of data generated by emerging ISR systems." https://www.darpa.mil/program/100-gb-s-rf-backbone https://www.darpa.mil/program/100-gb-s-rf-backbone

msh 9y ago

Hmm what kind of signal are they sending out? LTE/wifi?

jpm_sd 9y ago
It's a custom LTE base station.

rgbrenner 9y ago

Im sure there are a few people who will find Loon's service useful.. but 80% are without power, so they're mostly not going to use internet anyway -- no power means cell phones cant be charged, etc. Some have generators, but are they able to get fuel? Emergency personnel cant even get fuel to deliver food and medicine. Internet and cell service is being restored at a similar rate to power.. probably because these two depend on each other. So it seems like this is only really useful to people traveling from one of the areas with power to an area without power (first responders, workers doing repairs, etc). Still a good use case for Loon though.

pmorici 9y ago
You can easily charge a small device like a phone off solar panels, esp. in Puerto Rico a place known for sun.
- rgbrenner 9y ago
  good point. I wonder how many people had portable solar panels before the hurricanes though. It's not like they could order it after the hurricane. And the solar panels on people's houses are probably damaged... two hurricanes would do that.
  - pmorici 9y ago
    logistics of distributing small solar panels are almost certainly easier than generators + having to resupply them with fuel regularly.
    - rgbrenner 9y ago
      sure.. but they have issues distributing food and medicine.. do you really think they're distributing a lot of solar panels?
      - pmorici 9y ago
        If they decided they needed to get emergency power for radio communications to people and the choices were between generators w/ a supply of gas or portable solar charging kits I know which I would choose.

tyingq 9y ago

Be nice if they could also airdrop some cheap already charged 2g phones.