6 ms·

How was the case handled? Did they find the gunman? Was he charged? I ask because, honestly, I don't think I care what they police say when they first walk u

How was the case handled? Did they find the gunman? Was he charged? I ask because, honestly, I don't think I care what they police say when they first walk up as long as they solve the crime, catch the perpetrator. The problem we have nowadays is that we get to see "how the (justice system) sausage is made" a lot more than we used to. And it's disturbing. But those guys out there with uniforms on are the ones trying to survive every day and bring criminals to justice. It's easy to be an armchair quarterback.

s73ver_ 9y ago
I feel being shocked at how this person was treated is not just "armchair quarterbacking". Given the power and trust we place in police, I don't feel it's unreasonable to expect they treat people with respect.
- gozur88 9y ago
  ... and that they're punished pretty severely when they betray that trust.
  - mulmen 9y ago
    Sometimes.
  - syshum 9y ago
    They are? I have been following police abuse for nearly 15 years... I do not see any evidence of that
    - icebraining 9y ago
      I think gozur88 is following on the previous statement "I don't feel it's unreasonable to expect..."
    - andrewaylett 9y ago
      I think -- but am not certain, not being the GP -- that's their point: they don't see it happening, but think that a reasonable person would expect it.
      - gozur88 9y ago
        You are correct. I meant the ellipses to indicate a continuation of the sentence, and if you put it together you get this: "Given the power and trust we place in police, I don't feel it's unreasonable to expect they treat people with respect and that they're punished pretty severely when they betray that trust."
rhizome 9y ago
But those guys out there with uniforms on are the ones trying to survive every day Yeah, no. It's not that dangerous.
- Clubber 9y ago
  Not even in the top ten. Less dangerous than grounds maintenance worker. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/01/28/charted-the-20-deadliest-jobs-in-america/?utm_term=.3a831a4d8e0a https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/01/28/chart... As far as straight up getting murdered, it's in the top 2, but #1 taxi drivers are murdered at almost 3x the rate.
  - emmelaich 9y ago
    Statistics are deceiving. No one has it in for grounds maintenance workers and taxi drivers and they typically don't go looking for trouble. For policeman it's their job to go to dangerous places.
    - danenania 9y ago
      What about these particular statistics is deceiving? You can't just dismiss hard data without explanation. Why would your subjective impression of danger be more accurate than these numbers?
      - zo1 9y ago
        I would say it's misleading because it makes people think it's "not that dangerous" to be a policeman. While at the same time not presenting the obvious existence of things that "downplay" that statistic. I.e. That policemen are more often than not armed and able to protect themselves. We at least need to have additional data to make any conclusions about it. Not just the plain "deaths per profession" statistic.
        Clubber 9y ago
        If you look at the article I linked, the main statistic is injuries per profession. The actual deaths per profession has police as #2. Injuries per profession, the police is not even in the top 10. It depends on how you define dangerous. It boils down to, I guess police is a dangerous profession, but certainly not in the extreme as shown by the existence of more dangerous professions. Also, being dangerous profession certainly doesn't excuse other types of workers to blatantly use deadly force because they are scared of their profession, and it shouldn't be an excuse for police to do the same. Yet, here we are, in a thread talking about police misconduct, and someone comes up with "but their jobs are dangerous," as if it should stand as an excuse for misconduct. It does not.
EliRivers 9y ago
It's easy to be an armchair quarterback. I hear this every time someone with a difficult job has it pointed out to them that they're doing it badly. They don't even pretend that somehow makes it acceptable to do the job badly; I honestly don't know what effect saying it is supposed to have.
- captncraig 9y ago
  It's an ad hominem attempt to deflect attention back at the attacker. Being wrong is hard to deal with, so you change the subject. It is a fairly subconscious reaction.
- kbutler 9y ago
  It's a recognition that there are complications beyond the simplistic picture one can get without personal experience. This often includes time, budget, and policy constraints the individual has no control over.
  - CyberDildonics 9y ago
    Except that there are many examples of police that do their jobs very well. I'm not sure why it has to be a mystery what standard police should be held to.
  - mulmen 9y ago
    If airline pilots crashed half of their flights we would be right to criticize them. Having a hard job is no excuse for doing it poorly.
    - kbutler 9y ago
      And if police catastrophically fail half their interactions, we should criticize them, too. We only end up discussing the tiny fraction of police cases where things go badly.
      - mulmen 9y ago
Zak 9y ago
> It's easy to be an armchair quarterback. I don't know how to be an orthopedic surgeon. The closest thing I've had to medical training was a first aid and CPR class. What I do know is that if an orthopedic surgeon, upon first seeing an overweight patient complaining of hip pain says "lay off the cheeseburgers and your hip will be fine, you fat slob", that doctor is doing a bad job. Not only is it hostile and rude, it fails to attempt to adequately understand the situation before rushing to judgement. I do know a little about how to be a police officer. I went to school for it, but decided that wasn't what I want to do with my life. Accusing a complainant of lying right off the bat without any investigation when the complaint is anything more believable than an alien abduction, then having the evidence of your rudeness deleted is not how to be a good cop. I don't think it really takes much training or experience to reach that conclusion.
- katastic 9y ago
  > It's easy to be an armchair quarterback. If my arm was made out of a chair, I'd think I'd have difficulty throwing the ball to a wide receiver.
- goialoq 9y ago
  > I went to school for it, but decided that wasn't what I want to do with my life. Interesting, because most police officers don't need to go to school for it to get the job, right?
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > Interesting, because most police officers don't need to go to school for it to get the job, right? It's usually not a minimum requirement, but a degree, usually in criminal justice, can be a significant competitive advantage in applications. You don't strictly need to go to school to be a professional programmer, either, but people still go to school for it.
will_brown 9y ago
Here is what happened... The next morning I get a call from the detective in the county to the South confirming he obtained video from the gas station where this all originated (the defendant approaching me while I’m pumping gas). Next I get a notification from Apple my iPad has been found, which I placed in lost/stolen mode. I call the detective who doesn’t answer his phone and then the police station in the county where I escaped and my iPad was located. Dispatch informed me they would not go to the address provided by Apple to look for the defendant, my car or iPad until I drove back up to that county and met with the police. I drove back to the county and met with two police officers who drove to the address (only 1.5 miles from the police station) but they did not see my vehicle, and apparently there was no way they would get a warrant to search the domicile for my iPad and they wouldn’t bother knocking to see if the suspect was there. Unconvinced I worked up the nerve to drive by the property myself...I’ll be damned if I didn’t see my car driving up and down the streets of this neighborhood. I did my best to tail the car until it parked 1 house away from the address provided by Apple, and watched as the defendant got out of my car walked into the the street as I drove past. Once again I called 911 and plead they come back out to the address while I waited a few blocks away. Once I saw a police car enter the neighborhood I followed until we arrived at my car which had already been relocated about a block away from where I saw it park and I drove past the defendant. On scene an officer was questioning 2 individuals on the front porch of the house where my car was parked and the defendant was standing on the sidewalk about 5 feet from my car. I basically yelled officer that’s the man who kidnapped me with a gun and car jacked me. He was handcuffed and taken into custody. Shortly after I was asked to appear at the police station where I ended up being questioned and accused of trying to buy “the hard stuff”...I had to ask, apparently that’s crack. And this was the same detective who already obtained video of the gas station corroborating my entire story, I explained I was an attorney that I had just run 18 miles on the morning I was kidnapped (showed my run keeper app and everything) and otherwise I wasn’t celebrating my 18 mile run with crack. Almost immediately I was told I can go, of course I asked if he would get a warrant to recover my iPad and more important look for the gun, and I was told “no, those kinds of resources don’t exist.” The defendant was arrested on Sunday, charged with grand theft of an auto and bonded out on Monday. Not until the “State Attorney Hearing” a few weeks later where the State attoney confirmed she had 2 prior cases against this guy where with similar facts: he stole a car in the county to the South and the cars were recovered in the county to the North, did I finally feel vindicated. Then, 1 week later his bond was revoked and the real charges came including assault with a deadly weapon and kidnapping with a fire arm. As to it being easy to be a armchair quarterback, I wouldn’t know but I’ll take your word for it. Edit: deleted link to the public record of the case

s73ver_ 9y ago

I feel being shocked at how this person was treated is not just "armchair quarterbacking". Given the power and trust we place in police, I don't feel it's unreasonable to expect they treat people with respect.

gozur88 9y ago
... and that they're punished pretty severely when they betray that trust.
- mulmen 9y ago
  Sometimes.
- syshum 9y ago
  They are? I have been following police abuse for nearly 15 years... I do not see any evidence of that
  - icebraining 9y ago
    I think gozur88 is following on the previous statement "I don't feel it's unreasonable to expect..."
  - andrewaylett 9y ago
    I think -- but am not certain, not being the GP -- that's their point: they don't see it happening, but think that a reasonable person would expect it.
    - gozur88 9y ago
      You are correct. I meant the ellipses to indicate a continuation of the sentence, and if you put it together you get this: "Given the power and trust we place in police, I don't feel it's unreasonable to expect they treat people with respect and that they're punished pretty severely when they betray that trust."

rhizome 9y ago

But those guys out there with uniforms on are the ones trying to survive every day Yeah, no. It's not that dangerous.

Clubber 9y ago
Not even in the top ten. Less dangerous than grounds maintenance worker. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/01/28/charted-the-20-deadliest-jobs-in-america/?utm_term=.3a831a4d8e0a https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/01/28/chart... As far as straight up getting murdered, it's in the top 2, but #1 taxi drivers are murdered at almost 3x the rate.
- emmelaich 9y ago
  Statistics are deceiving. No one has it in for grounds maintenance workers and taxi drivers and they typically don't go looking for trouble. For policeman it's their job to go to dangerous places.
  - danenania 9y ago
    What about these particular statistics is deceiving? You can't just dismiss hard data without explanation. Why would your subjective impression of danger be more accurate than these numbers?
    - zo1 9y ago
      I would say it's misleading because it makes people think it's "not that dangerous" to be a policeman. While at the same time not presenting the obvious existence of things that "downplay" that statistic. I.e. That policemen are more often than not armed and able to protect themselves. We at least need to have additional data to make any conclusions about it. Not just the plain "deaths per profession" statistic.
      - Clubber 9y ago
        If you look at the article I linked, the main statistic is injuries per profession. The actual deaths per profession has police as #2. Injuries per profession, the police is not even in the top 10. It depends on how you define dangerous. It boils down to, I guess police is a dangerous profession, but certainly not in the extreme as shown by the existence of more dangerous professions. Also, being dangerous profession certainly doesn't excuse other types of workers to blatantly use deadly force because they are scared of their profession, and it shouldn't be an excuse for police to do the same. Yet, here we are, in a thread talking about police misconduct, and someone comes up with "but their jobs are dangerous," as if it should stand as an excuse for misconduct. It does not.

EliRivers 9y ago

It's easy to be an armchair quarterback. I hear this every time someone with a difficult job has it pointed out to them that they're doing it badly. They don't even pretend that somehow makes it acceptable to do the job badly; I honestly don't know what effect saying it is supposed to have.

captncraig 9y ago
It's an ad hominem attempt to deflect attention back at the attacker. Being wrong is hard to deal with, so you change the subject. It is a fairly subconscious reaction.
kbutler 9y ago
It's a recognition that there are complications beyond the simplistic picture one can get without personal experience. This often includes time, budget, and policy constraints the individual has no control over.
- CyberDildonics 9y ago
  Except that there are many examples of police that do their jobs very well. I'm not sure why it has to be a mystery what standard police should be held to.
- mulmen 9y ago
  If airline pilots crashed half of their flights we would be right to criticize them. Having a hard job is no excuse for doing it poorly.
  - kbutler 9y ago
    And if police catastrophically fail half their interactions, we should criticize them, too. We only end up discussing the tiny fraction of police cases where things go badly.
    - mulmen 9y ago

Zak 9y ago

> It's easy to be an armchair quarterback. I don't know how to be an orthopedic surgeon. The closest thing I've had to medical training was a first aid and CPR class. What I do know is that if an orthopedic surgeon, upon first seeing an overweight patient complaining of hip pain says "lay off the cheeseburgers and your hip will be fine, you fat slob", that doctor is doing a bad job. Not only is it hostile and rude, it fails to attempt to adequately understand the situation before rushing to judgement. I do know a little about how to be a police officer. I went to school for it, but decided that wasn't what I want to do with my life. Accusing a complainant of lying right off the bat without any investigation when the complaint is anything more believable than an alien abduction, then having the evidence of your rudeness deleted is not how to be a good cop. I don't think it really takes much training or experience to reach that conclusion.

katastic 9y ago
> It's easy to be an armchair quarterback. If my arm was made out of a chair, I'd think I'd have difficulty throwing the ball to a wide receiver.
goialoq 9y ago
> I went to school for it, but decided that wasn't what I want to do with my life. Interesting, because most police officers don't need to go to school for it to get the job, right?
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Interesting, because most police officers don't need to go to school for it to get the job, right? It's usually not a minimum requirement, but a degree, usually in criminal justice, can be a significant competitive advantage in applications. You don't strictly need to go to school to be a professional programmer, either, but people still go to school for it.

will_brown 9y ago

Here is what happened... The next morning I get a call from the detective in the county to the South confirming he obtained video from the gas station where this all originated (the defendant approaching me while I’m pumping gas). Next I get a notification from Apple my iPad has been found, which I placed in lost/stolen mode. I call the detective who doesn’t answer his phone and then the police station in the county where I escaped and my iPad was located. Dispatch informed me they would not go to the address provided by Apple to look for the defendant, my car or iPad until I drove back up to that county and met with the police. I drove back to the county and met with two police officers who drove to the address (only 1.5 miles from the police station) but they did not see my vehicle, and apparently there was no way they would get a warrant to search the domicile for my iPad and they wouldn’t bother knocking to see if the suspect was there. Unconvinced I worked up the nerve to drive by the property myself...I’ll be damned if I didn’t see my car driving up and down the streets of this neighborhood. I did my best to tail the car until it parked 1 house away from the address provided by Apple, and watched as the defendant got out of my car walked into the the street as I drove past. Once again I called 911 and plead they come back out to the address while I waited a few blocks away. Once I saw a police car enter the neighborhood I followed until we arrived at my car which had already been relocated about a block away from where I saw it park and I drove past the defendant. On scene an officer was questioning 2 individuals on the front porch of the house where my car was parked and the defendant was standing on the sidewalk about 5 feet from my car. I basically yelled officer that’s the man who kidnapped me with a gun and car jacked me. He was handcuffed and taken into custody. Shortly after I was asked to appear at the police station where I ended up being questioned and accused of trying to buy “the hard stuff”...I had to ask, apparently that’s crack. And this was the same detective who already obtained video of the gas station corroborating my entire story, I explained I was an attorney that I had just run 18 miles on the morning I was kidnapped (showed my run keeper app and everything) and otherwise I wasn’t celebrating my 18 mile run with crack. Almost immediately I was told I can go, of course I asked if he would get a warrant to recover my iPad and more important look for the gun, and I was told “no, those kinds of resources don’t exist.” The defendant was arrested on Sunday, charged with grand theft of an auto and bonded out on Monday. Not until the “State Attorney Hearing” a few weeks later where the State attoney confirmed she had 2 prior cases against this guy where with similar facts: he stole a car in the county to the South and the cars were recovered in the county to the North, did I finally feel vindicated. Then, 1 week later his bond was revoked and the real charges came including assault with a deadly weapon and kidnapping with a fire arm. As to it being easy to be a armchair quarterback, I wouldn’t know but I’ll take your word for it. Edit: deleted link to the public record of the case