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I think it boils down to one thing: How enthusiastic an old engineer is about technology in general and whether they are proactive on keeping themselves up to d

by jitix 9y ago

I think it boils down to one thing: How enthusiastic an old engineer is about technology in general and whether they are proactive on keeping themselves up to date on the latest things (vs reactively learning something when a project requires it). I worked at a startup for the last 4.5 years which had a lot of older (40-50 yr) people (the founders were in their late 40s). I also interviewed a lot of older people (both with positive and negative feedback). What I noticed is two clear groups: One set of older devs have been in the tech industry just because they needed a job and have somehow kept up with the technologies in a reactive manner. This set of people have mentality of "this is how we used to do this back in 19xx/20xx". It doesn't always work out. The other set of people are genuinely interested in technology and proactively seek new things, present papers, blog about stuff, and are always on the look out for the next improvement and the next thing. This set of people tend to learn from their own experiences and improve on things while providing guidance to devs in their 20s/early 30s. This set of people never have trouble finding jobs. The bottom line is that the tech industry requires you to do continuous learning and be enthusiastic about stuff. If you can't do that you'll have trouble finding jobs when you're older. Edit: I’m seeing the same pattern at my current job even though the percentage of older devs is lower here.

amyjess 9y ago
If people have to "present papers" and "blog about stuff" just to keep a steady paycheck, it's a sign the industry is broken.
- jitix 9y ago
  The industry itself is only a few decades old.. it'll take some time before it stabilizes to a point where you can largely do the same thing your entire career. Also everybody doesn't have to present papers, or speak in seminars, etc. but most older developers who are sought after usually do.
  - Karrot_Kream 9y ago
    Because the person who writes a lot of blog posts is the person who spends a lot of time marketing themselves but not actually getting shit done. If you think a blog post is proof of knowledge, well wow, you'd be shocked at what academia's peer review process is.
    - jitix 9y ago
      > person who spends a lot of time marketing themselves but not actually getting shit done Why can't you market yourself AND get shit done at the same time? As a person who likes to code alone in the dark (I started with foxpro and cpp in 7th grade on my beloved 386) I grew as the world changed. > If you think a blog post is proof of knowledge A Blog is a personal publication (freedom yay!) and shows that the person writing the blog at least "spent some time researching something that your regular job doesn't need you to do". And that's a big plus in recruiting. Disclaimer: I don't have a blog because I don't need to :) Coding is mainstream now. Move On dude! EDIT: waiting for downvotes from butthurt people!
- city41 9y ago
  Why is that? Given two candidates, one is actively up on current technology and the other isn't, it can be argued the first one has an edge.
watwut 9y ago
Who would you expect developers to be speakers and presenters? Those are two almost separate tracks - the people who speak at the conferences and present and the people who spend most of the time doing things. Knowing how to look cool and knowing what the audience like is entirely different skill then being senior developer. One requires social charisma, the other much less so. Some level of social skills is important at senior level (how to deal with juniors without being jerk, how to deal with customers etc), but that is still different social skill then presenting and speaking. Majority of developers I know, regardless of age, don't like writing in general. Few do and it is great when they do, but most avoid it unless related to job - and it has nothing to do with love of technology. I dont know why is are some people so obsessed about apparent feelings instead of skill and contributions (both technical and organizational). It is as if projecting various seemingly cool proxies for "passion" and "enthusiasm" was more important then being engineer that takes the job seriously.
- jitix 9y ago
  I think you and I are doing completely different types of software development or live in very different bubbles. > Those are two almost separate tracks No they are not. If you come up with some innovation/improvement in your field you should present it to a broader audience. It's not like these seminars and meetups have non-technical audience. So you don't need Elon Musk level of charisma. It's just sharing knowledge. > Majority of developers I know, regardless of age, don't like writing in general Not true for me. Most good developers I know like to share their knowledge and opinions via different channels. > Few do and it is great when they do WTF! why is not documenting stuff acceptable where you work? what happens when the component needs updates/fixes long after the developer has left? At least document enough stuff so that somebody else can be brought up to speed quickly. Maintainability is a key requirement in modern software. > skill and contributions If you're doing the same thing your skill doesn't really improve much after 3-4 years. Most best practices are documented or are otherwise passed down from senior engineers to junior engineers. So it's not like somebody with 20 years experience will write better code than somebody with 5 years experience. As an anecdotal evidence, I started out fresh out of college 8 years back, did J2EE and some frontend (pre-HTML5).. after 3 years I realized that I knew pretty much known everything about enterprise J2EE patterns and practices as any other person. So I moved into big data (hadoop, MR, etc.), learned stuff, mentored people, etc. Last year I realized that big data field is big enough with enough documentation and established practices that you can train a developer in 2 years to do what I was doing. So I moved into machine learning. I hope to ride this wave for the next 5-6 years until it becomes apparent that any college graduate can be trained to do my work with a couple of years of mentoring.
beingmyself2 9y ago
I've noticed this as well. The number of people in tech who very clearly have no interest outside of their paycheck is disheartening. Can they do they job? Usually. Will they ever update their skills or keep up with the general direction of the industry? Almost never.
johngalt 9y ago
And yet there is no reason to bracket that trait with age. There are plenty of people fresh out of school who don't learn anything unless they are told to. I always hear of this mythical tech geezer who has been doing things the same way for 30 years and stuck in their ways. I don't think I've ever met one.

by jitix 9y ago

amyjess 9y ago

If people have to "present papers" and "blog about stuff" just to keep a steady paycheck, it's a sign the industry is broken.

jitix 9y ago
The industry itself is only a few decades old.. it'll take some time before it stabilizes to a point where you can largely do the same thing your entire career. Also everybody doesn't have to present papers, or speak in seminars, etc. but most older developers who are sought after usually do.
- Karrot_Kream 9y ago
  Because the person who writes a lot of blog posts is the person who spends a lot of time marketing themselves but not actually getting shit done. If you think a blog post is proof of knowledge, well wow, you'd be shocked at what academia's peer review process is.
  - jitix 9y ago
    > person who spends a lot of time marketing themselves but not actually getting shit done Why can't you market yourself AND get shit done at the same time? As a person who likes to code alone in the dark (I started with foxpro and cpp in 7th grade on my beloved 386) I grew as the world changed. > If you think a blog post is proof of knowledge A Blog is a personal publication (freedom yay!) and shows that the person writing the blog at least "spent some time researching something that your regular job doesn't need you to do". And that's a big plus in recruiting. Disclaimer: I don't have a blog because I don't need to :) Coding is mainstream now. Move On dude! EDIT: waiting for downvotes from butthurt people!
city41 9y ago
Why is that? Given two candidates, one is actively up on current technology and the other isn't, it can be argued the first one has an edge.

watwut 9y ago

Who would you expect developers to be speakers and presenters? Those are two almost separate tracks - the people who speak at the conferences and present and the people who spend most of the time doing things. Knowing how to look cool and knowing what the audience like is entirely different skill then being senior developer. One requires social charisma, the other much less so. Some level of social skills is important at senior level (how to deal with juniors without being jerk, how to deal with customers etc), but that is still different social skill then presenting and speaking. Majority of developers I know, regardless of age, don't like writing in general. Few do and it is great when they do, but most avoid it unless related to job - and it has nothing to do with love of technology. I dont know why is are some people so obsessed about apparent feelings instead of skill and contributions (both technical and organizational). It is as if projecting various seemingly cool proxies for "passion" and "enthusiasm" was more important then being engineer that takes the job seriously.

jitix 9y ago
I think you and I are doing completely different types of software development or live in very different bubbles. > Those are two almost separate tracks No they are not. If you come up with some innovation/improvement in your field you should present it to a broader audience. It's not like these seminars and meetups have non-technical audience. So you don't need Elon Musk level of charisma. It's just sharing knowledge. > Majority of developers I know, regardless of age, don't like writing in general Not true for me. Most good developers I know like to share their knowledge and opinions via different channels. > Few do and it is great when they do WTF! why is not documenting stuff acceptable where you work? what happens when the component needs updates/fixes long after the developer has left? At least document enough stuff so that somebody else can be brought up to speed quickly. Maintainability is a key requirement in modern software. > skill and contributions If you're doing the same thing your skill doesn't really improve much after 3-4 years. Most best practices are documented or are otherwise passed down from senior engineers to junior engineers. So it's not like somebody with 20 years experience will write better code than somebody with 5 years experience. As an anecdotal evidence, I started out fresh out of college 8 years back, did J2EE and some frontend (pre-HTML5).. after 3 years I realized that I knew pretty much known everything about enterprise J2EE patterns and practices as any other person. So I moved into big data (hadoop, MR, etc.), learned stuff, mentored people, etc. Last year I realized that big data field is big enough with enough documentation and established practices that you can train a developer in 2 years to do what I was doing. So I moved into machine learning. I hope to ride this wave for the next 5-6 years until it becomes apparent that any college graduate can be trained to do my work with a couple of years of mentoring.

beingmyself2 9y ago

I've noticed this as well. The number of people in tech who very clearly have no interest outside of their paycheck is disheartening. Can they do they job? Usually. Will they ever update their skills or keep up with the general direction of the industry? Almost never.

johngalt 9y ago

And yet there is no reason to bracket that trait with age. There are plenty of people fresh out of school who don't learn anything unless they are told to. I always hear of this mythical tech geezer who has been doing things the same way for 30 years and stuck in their ways. I don't think I've ever met one.