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Coming Apart by Charles Murray is an incredibly important book that goes into detail about this including immense amounts of statistical data. The core of Ameri

Coming Apart by Charles Murray is an incredibly important book that goes into detail about this including immense amounts of statistical data. The core of American civilization is based on Judeo-Christian values and the fact that faith in those are rotting away is directly leading to slow-motion social collapse. I understand the average HN reader is probably areligious (the book goes into the class dynamics of why this is) and skeptical of anything not science-related, but the deleterious effects are serious and real. https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Apart-State-America-1960-2010/dp/030745343X https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Apart-State-America-1960-2010/...

mwerd 9y ago
Seems a bit convenient to his point of view. Western democracy is much more strongly associated with Greek city-states like Athens and the ancient Greek leagues than Judeo-Christian theology.
- rainbowmverse 9y ago
  It does seem like most religions are a derivative of what came before. Less self-aware Christians will sometimes get into a fuss over how Islam "stole" all its ideas from Christianity (the direction is a matter of debate among theologians), but so much of their religion seems to come from those that preceded it.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > Less self-aware Christians will sometimes get into a fuss over how Islam "stole" all its ideas from Christianity (the direction is a matter of debate among theologians) That the flow is in all directions between all three Abrahamic faiths (and not just those) is fairly firmly historically established.
- bkeroack 9y ago
  "And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." George Washington's Farewell Address https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington%27s_Farewell_Address https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington%27s_Farewell...
  - krastanov 9y ago
    Historical quotes devoid of modern context can be found to support whatever position you want. This one specifically, while cute, lacks any argument or logic supporting its claim. And it is rather offensive to the existing large community of humanists.
maldusiecle 9y ago
Might as well mention that the book's full title is "Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010", and that Murray is best known for his controversial comments about race in his book The Bell Curve. Suffice it to say, Murray's version of the "core of American civilization" is something I'd be very happy to see disintegrate. I doubt I'm the only one.
- astura 9y ago
  Are people really that triggered by extremely relevant factual information to downvote it? The Southern Poverty Law Center, with very good reason, has classified him a a White Nationalist https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/charles-murray#content https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/indi... The writings that I've read by him (which I admit, isn't much) can be summarized as "minorities are genetically inferior because... science." (and the subtext is a lot nastier) I'll agree I want no part of whatever Charles Murray's vision of America should be. I also wouldn't classify any of his writings as "incredibly important," his writings on race are largely discredited.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> The core of American civilization is based on Judeo-Christian values and the fact that faith in those are rotting away is directly leading to slow-motion social collapse. Insofar as the first part is true, those broadly held, super-ecumenical values aren't what belief is eroding in; the theological, cosmological, and eschatological beliefs and associated ritual is what people are abandoning, not values that are so broad as to be both foundational to “American civilization” (itself something of a parochial myth) and validly described as “Judeo-Christian”.

mwerd 9y ago

Seems a bit convenient to his point of view. Western democracy is much more strongly associated with Greek city-states like Athens and the ancient Greek leagues than Judeo-Christian theology.

rainbowmverse 9y ago
It does seem like most religions are a derivative of what came before. Less self-aware Christians will sometimes get into a fuss over how Islam "stole" all its ideas from Christianity (the direction is a matter of debate among theologians), but so much of their religion seems to come from those that preceded it.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Less self-aware Christians will sometimes get into a fuss over how Islam "stole" all its ideas from Christianity (the direction is a matter of debate among theologians) That the flow is in all directions between all three Abrahamic faiths (and not just those) is fairly firmly historically established.
bkeroack 9y ago
"And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." George Washington's Farewell Address https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington%27s_Farewell_Address https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington%27s_Farewell...
- krastanov 9y ago
  Historical quotes devoid of modern context can be found to support whatever position you want. This one specifically, while cute, lacks any argument or logic supporting its claim. And it is rather offensive to the existing large community of humanists.

maldusiecle 9y ago

Might as well mention that the book's full title is "Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010", and that Murray is best known for his controversial comments about race in his book The Bell Curve. Suffice it to say, Murray's version of the "core of American civilization" is something I'd be very happy to see disintegrate. I doubt I'm the only one.

astura 9y ago
Are people really that triggered by extremely relevant factual information to downvote it? The Southern Poverty Law Center, with very good reason, has classified him a a White Nationalist https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/charles-murray#content https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/indi... The writings that I've read by him (which I admit, isn't much) can be summarized as "minorities are genetically inferior because... science." (and the subtext is a lot nastier) I'll agree I want no part of whatever Charles Murray's vision of America should be. I also wouldn't classify any of his writings as "incredibly important," his writings on race are largely discredited.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> The core of American civilization is based on Judeo-Christian values and the fact that faith in those are rotting away is directly leading to slow-motion social collapse. Insofar as the first part is true, those broadly held, super-ecumenical values aren't what belief is eroding in; the theological, cosmological, and eschatological beliefs and associated ritual is what people are abandoning, not values that are so broad as to be both foundational to “American civilization” (itself something of a parochial myth) and validly described as “Judeo-Christian”.