5 ms·

>> It's not like pretty much anywhere else in the western world where people who own grazing animals need to fence them in. It's an exception and not the rule,

>> It's not like pretty much anywhere else in the western world where people who own grazing animals need to fence them in. It's an exception and not the rule, as you're saying, but I know of at least a few spots in the Rocky Mountains in the US where farmed cattle graze openly and property owners have to let them. The ones I'm thinking of I think became that way because it was a permanent condition of the sale of the property in smaller parcels (i.e. the original owner parceled it up for cabins but retained grazing rights in perpetuity). But it's in areas where they actually want to keep vegetation in check to mitigate forest fires.

refurb 9y ago
Yes, out west many states have "free grazing" laws. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_range https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_range
- plussed_reader 9y ago
  See: Cliven Bundy
  - poulsbohemian 9y ago
    Came to post exactly this. Once upon a time there were vast western lands open for grazing. There were even "wars" fought between cattle and sheep ranchers over grazing rights. Today the feds have closed off many areas -- for example, if I understand correctly, in the Hells Canyon area there were once 300,000+ sheep left to graze, where today there are effectively none. Certainly there were areas that were significantly damaged by overgrazing and a better balance for the public good was needed. That stated, one of the counter arguments is that it started with the ranchers, then the feds come along and close the roads, soon the public forests become inaccessible and unused altogether. There are a lot more public lands in the west apart from the major national parks. Certainly the Bundy's approach missed the mark in terms of articulating their arguments on this issue.
    - Gargoyle 9y ago
      There's a very beautiful documentary from 2011 about open range sheep grazing in Montana, called SWEETGRASS. It's un-narrated, mostly just lets things speak for themselves. http://www.pbs.org/pov/sweetgrass/ http://www.pbs.org/pov/sweetgrass/
    - openasocket 9y ago
      My understanding was that Bundy was grazing his cattle on federal land and was refusing to pay grazing fees. He argued in United States v Bundy (1998) that he didn't have to pay grazing fees. https://www.scribd.com/document/218116757/1998-U-S-Dist-LEXIS-23835 https://www.scribd.com/document/218116757/1998-U-S-Dist-LEXI...
      - rconti 9y ago
        Which is an effing joke, as the federal government charges pennies on the dollar for grazing rights compared to what a private landowner would charge. And yet, the Bundys want the taxpayers to take it in the shorts even more for their privilege and profit.
        hduwvzvshsuz 9y ago
        How exactly are taxpayers paying anything?
        rconti 9y ago
        If they're getting charged less than market rate, the government is subsidizing their behavior on public lands.
        nkurz 9y ago
        While there are many that share your view, the legal situation is far more complex. While disputed, there is in fact legal precedent for considering "grazing rights" to be private property, with the annual fees being paid for the administration of the program rather than being a rent designed to be equal to the free market value of the grass. Did you know, for example, that grazing rights aren't something that is available on the "open market", are specifically attached to piece of private property, and are generally transferred (and inherited) along with it? That the IRS considers grazing rights such an integral part of the valuation of a ranch that they are subject to estate taxes? Here's a simple introduction: http://www.thetribunepapers.com/2014/05/19/grazing-rights-statehood-or-serfdom/ http://www.thetribunepapers.com/2014/05/19/grazing-rights-st... And some legal theory: https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/jrm/article/viewFile/9241/8853 https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/jrm/article/view... And a recent update in central case that's been ongoing for decades, alternating between many (mostly Nevada district court) decisions favoring the ranchers, and many (mostly California circuit court) reversals: https://www.fseee.org/2017/03/08/nevada-rancher-hage-loses-in-court/ https://www.fseee.org/2017/03/08/nevada-rancher-hage-loses-i... This is unsettled law, and calling it "an effing joke" doesn't do it justice. You are welcome to disagree with the ranchers' arguments, but if you care about truth, fairness, accuracy, and respect, I don't think you should call it a joke, at least until you've looked at the situation more closely.
mabub24 9y ago
Also I think throughout Montana there are free grazing areas for sheep. I think that's what you're seeing in the fantastic documentary called Sweetgrass: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV9iah71iPQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV9iah71iPQ

refurb 9y ago

Yes, out west many states have "free grazing" laws. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_range https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_range

plussed_reader 9y ago
See: Cliven Bundy
- poulsbohemian 9y ago
  Came to post exactly this. Once upon a time there were vast western lands open for grazing. There were even "wars" fought between cattle and sheep ranchers over grazing rights. Today the feds have closed off many areas -- for example, if I understand correctly, in the Hells Canyon area there were once 300,000+ sheep left to graze, where today there are effectively none. Certainly there were areas that were significantly damaged by overgrazing and a better balance for the public good was needed. That stated, one of the counter arguments is that it started with the ranchers, then the feds come along and close the roads, soon the public forests become inaccessible and unused altogether. There are a lot more public lands in the west apart from the major national parks. Certainly the Bundy's approach missed the mark in terms of articulating their arguments on this issue.
  - Gargoyle 9y ago
    There's a very beautiful documentary from 2011 about open range sheep grazing in Montana, called SWEETGRASS. It's un-narrated, mostly just lets things speak for themselves. http://www.pbs.org/pov/sweetgrass/ http://www.pbs.org/pov/sweetgrass/
  - openasocket 9y ago
    My understanding was that Bundy was grazing his cattle on federal land and was refusing to pay grazing fees. He argued in United States v Bundy (1998) that he didn't have to pay grazing fees. https://www.scribd.com/document/218116757/1998-U-S-Dist-LEXIS-23835 https://www.scribd.com/document/218116757/1998-U-S-Dist-LEXI...
    - rconti 9y ago
      Which is an effing joke, as the federal government charges pennies on the dollar for grazing rights compared to what a private landowner would charge. And yet, the Bundys want the taxpayers to take it in the shorts even more for their privilege and profit.
      - hduwvzvshsuz 9y ago
        How exactly are taxpayers paying anything?
        rconti 9y ago
        If they're getting charged less than market rate, the government is subsidizing their behavior on public lands.
      - nkurz 9y ago
        While there are many that share your view, the legal situation is far more complex. While disputed, there is in fact legal precedent for considering "grazing rights" to be private property, with the annual fees being paid for the administration of the program rather than being a rent designed to be equal to the free market value of the grass. Did you know, for example, that grazing rights aren't something that is available on the "open market", are specifically attached to piece of private property, and are generally transferred (and inherited) along with it? That the IRS considers grazing rights such an integral part of the valuation of a ranch that they are subject to estate taxes? Here's a simple introduction: http://www.thetribunepapers.com/2014/05/19/grazing-rights-statehood-or-serfdom/ http://www.thetribunepapers.com/2014/05/19/grazing-rights-st... And some legal theory: https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/jrm/article/viewFile/9241/8853 https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/jrm/article/view... And a recent update in central case that's been ongoing for decades, alternating between many (mostly Nevada district court) decisions favoring the ranchers, and many (mostly California circuit court) reversals: https://www.fseee.org/2017/03/08/nevada-rancher-hage-loses-in-court/ https://www.fseee.org/2017/03/08/nevada-rancher-hage-loses-i... This is unsettled law, and calling it "an effing joke" doesn't do it justice. You are welcome to disagree with the ranchers' arguments, but if you care about truth, fairness, accuracy, and respect, I don't think you should call it a joke, at least until you've looked at the situation more closely.

mabub24 9y ago

Also I think throughout Montana there are free grazing areas for sheep. I think that's what you're seeing in the fantastic documentary called Sweetgrass: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV9iah71iPQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV9iah71iPQ