4 ms·

I know that's not malicious, but I'm kind of sick of being paternalized like this tbh. I can speak for myself, I don't need some nice guys to protect me. How is

I know that's not malicious, but I'm kind of sick of being paternalized like this tbh. I can speak for myself, I don't need some nice guys to protect me. How is that doing any good to the female image, seriously ? "Help ladies out, call people on their mistakes". We just look like poor helpless victims who rely on others to be guarded from sexual predators.

vidarh 9y ago
If you speak out for yourself, awesome. Just as it's awesome that Quinn Norton felt able to take on Scoble herself, including threatening violence if he didn't back off. But not everyone feels able to, or not everyone are strong enough to be able to fight off an attacker. And sorry, but it's not always going to be possible for bystanders to tell if you're able speak for yourself and choosing not to, or if you're terrified of someone. In this case, note that the article involves lengthy attempts at escalating concern and attempts at defusing the situation during which it is clear that the first woman is too drunk to know what's going on. After which Quinn takes direct action. In the former, the person in question clearly was not able to look out for herself (that's different from whether she the following morning, after having sobered up, would have liked things to continue), while nobody else had to stand up for Quinn. Nobody is saying we should step in instead of you if you're able to take care of yourself. But we also shouldn't stand by and let you get assaulted if your for whatever reason isn't in a position where you can. And that's not about gender - women shouldn't stand by quietly either. I do agree with you in the limited extent that it could have been worded in a gender-neutral way: Guys can be victims too. It's not specifically about helping women, but about stepping in if someone might be in distress or are unable to meaningfully consent to something.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> How is that doing any good to the female image, seriously ? It's not actually about “the female image” at all. The ”say something” thing is, to the extent it's about gender image at all, about the male image, particularly what is normalized by and for men. It's about the fact that a culture wherein for many male gender image involves disregard for female agency, consent, and concern is unlikely to be changed as effectively if the only condemnation of the manifestations of that attitude come from the people whom it disregards.
Geekette 9y ago
It's great when you can help yourself in such situations but we know not everyone can. The point of someone briefly interceding a gathering to ask whether you're ok (based on what they've observed as worrying speech, body language, etc) is an offer of help that can be accepted or discarded. I see nothing paternalizing in this. In the same way I wouldn't be offended by someone holding a door open for me despite my obvious capability of doing so myself, I'd appreciate their exhibiting concern for others to ask if I was OK, even I was capable of dealing with the situation or if there actually was nothing wrong. See something, say something - I'd do likewise if I perceived other women in what seemed to be a worrying situation.
Frondo 9y ago
You know, it's not even about you. If there were an epidemic of men in public spaces bullying other, smaller men, I'd be saying the same thing in a different context. People who look like you, if there's a lot of them being assholes to some outgroup, call them out. That's the general rule. Make the world nicer by reinforcing niceness where others can't. Right now it's women and the #metoo stuff. Tomorrow we can go back to talk about race. And on and on and on.

vidarh 9y ago

If you speak out for yourself, awesome. Just as it's awesome that Quinn Norton felt able to take on Scoble herself, including threatening violence if he didn't back off. But not everyone feels able to, or not everyone are strong enough to be able to fight off an attacker. And sorry, but it's not always going to be possible for bystanders to tell if you're able speak for yourself and choosing not to, or if you're terrified of someone. In this case, note that the article involves lengthy attempts at escalating concern and attempts at defusing the situation during which it is clear that the first woman is too drunk to know what's going on. After which Quinn takes direct action. In the former, the person in question clearly was not able to look out for herself (that's different from whether she the following morning, after having sobered up, would have liked things to continue), while nobody else had to stand up for Quinn. Nobody is saying we should step in instead of you if you're able to take care of yourself. But we also shouldn't stand by and let you get assaulted if your for whatever reason isn't in a position where you can. And that's not about gender - women shouldn't stand by quietly either. I do agree with you in the limited extent that it could have been worded in a gender-neutral way: Guys can be victims too. It's not specifically about helping women, but about stepping in if someone might be in distress or are unable to meaningfully consent to something.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> How is that doing any good to the female image, seriously ? It's not actually about “the female image” at all. The ”say something” thing is, to the extent it's about gender image at all, about the male image, particularly what is normalized by and for men. It's about the fact that a culture wherein for many male gender image involves disregard for female agency, consent, and concern is unlikely to be changed as effectively if the only condemnation of the manifestations of that attitude come from the people whom it disregards.

Geekette 9y ago

It's great when you can help yourself in such situations but we know not everyone can. The point of someone briefly interceding a gathering to ask whether you're ok (based on what they've observed as worrying speech, body language, etc) is an offer of help that can be accepted or discarded. I see nothing paternalizing in this. In the same way I wouldn't be offended by someone holding a door open for me despite my obvious capability of doing so myself, I'd appreciate their exhibiting concern for others to ask if I was OK, even I was capable of dealing with the situation or if there actually was nothing wrong. See something, say something - I'd do likewise if I perceived other women in what seemed to be a worrying situation.

Frondo 9y ago

You know, it's not even about you. If there were an epidemic of men in public spaces bullying other, smaller men, I'd be saying the same thing in a different context. People who look like you, if there's a lot of them being assholes to some outgroup, call them out. That's the general rule. Make the world nicer by reinforcing niceness where others can't. Right now it's women and the #metoo stuff. Tomorrow we can go back to talk about race. And on and on and on.