3 ms·

The difference there isn't "the guy being attractive", it's consent. Yes that means sometimes actions that cross the line of aggressiveness turn out ok in the e

The difference there isn't "the guy being attractive", it's consent. Yes that means sometimes actions that cross the line of aggressiveness turn out ok in the end because the woman was already receptive. That's not an excuse for engaging in this type of behaviour though, because without consent you don't know if you are just slightly expediting the start of a relationship, or if you are doing huge damage to a human being that, presumably, you are attracted to and care about. As the man, without knowing how she feels, why would you take the chance of destroying any chance of a relationship by gambling on what her reaction to your aggressive advances will be? I know there are grey areas here. Women know that too. In the vast majority of cases they aren't out to get you. A lot of women could tell you stories about guys who perhaps unknowingly crossed the line and how they still know and get on with those men and don't hate them. Women want to feel safe going about their day to day lives. Give them the opportunity to back out of situations. Make it clear that it's ok for them to say no. Apologise straight away when you fuck up.

rimliu 9y ago
The most tricky grey area is what someone consider "action". Physical contact is pretty obvious. And I think that's what you are talking about. But how about verbal (once agin, just simple "hello", not cat-calling)? Or just a look? If that's an attractive person looking at you you may find it pleasant. If that's an ugly/rude/whatever-reason-to-dislike person you will find it creepy, aggressive, whatnot. Another aspect I do not see mentioned in these discussions is "it's the guys who must be proactive" attitude which is common even among women. So some guys may feel like they must do something, alas, not always sure what and how to do it properly. And if we get to the point where saying "hello" to the person which does not like you (and you have no idea at that point) can be considered sexual harassment we are in the tough place. The best way to go would probably be make sure that guys understand once and for all that "no" means "no" and women to be encouraged to show their displeasure at once without being afraid that they will be judged for that.
- anon1385 9y ago
  >But how about verbal (once agin, just simple "hello", not cat-calling)? Firstly I've not seen any #metoo stories that were about guys just coming up and saying hello. If that was the extent of the problem we'd be in a much better place. But you're right in the sense that constantly having strange guys come up to you and introduce themselves, even politely, is something some do women complain about, because it can be incredibly annoying and emotionally draining to have to deal with that all the time whenever you are in public. Being forced to constantly reject people isn't nice. Also, even if the guy is polite and respectful, the woman won't know that until he has left, so the sight of a man approaching you just to say hello is probably going to come with some kind of defensive emotional reaction, because he might be one of the real assholes. To be honest personally it's something I find a bit creepy. I'd never do it myself. There are times when it can feel natural to strike up a conversation with a stranger (some kind of shared event or experience or whatever), but very rarely does it seem natural to me to just go up to complete strangers and introduce yourself, outside of the context of events very specifically designed for that. I'd find it pretty strange if a woman did it to me, no matter how attractive she was. >Another aspect I do not see mentioned in these discussions is "it's the guys who must be proactive" attitude which is common even among women. So some guys may feel like they must do something, alas, not always sure what and how to do it properly. This is part of what feminists mean when they talk about patriarchy; the expectation on men and women to conform to certain roles in sexual relationships is part of that. Patriarchy is bad for men as well! It is a problem that some guys feel obliged to be the proactive one, and a problem that a lot of dating "advice" for men is pretty much summarised as 'be more aggressive' rather than 'be more thoughtful'. There's a lot to be said on this topic about how we as society educate young men about what the beginnings of relationships look like and how we need to do so much better. >The best way to go would probably be make sure that guys understand once and for all that "no" means "no" and women to be encouraged to show their displeasure at once without being afraid that they will be judged for that. It shouldn't be the responsibility of women to have to say no to stop already in progress actions by men. Some situations obviously would be prevented/de-escalated by men knowing no means no. But that still leaves a lot of other situations. Events where women feel social or career pressure towards not saying no. Events where women were too drunk to say no (as in the article we're talking about). There's a whole lot of emotional complexity to a lot of these situations that can make it difficult to explicitly say no. Especially for young women/teens who are less experienced. One of the notable things about the stories posted by women this week is how young so many women were when they were first assaulted or raped, and how confused and guilty they felt about it. The emotional complexity of relationships is challenging for most adults, never mind children. That emotional burden can't be allowed to fall entirely on one party in specific instances or one gender in general.

rimliu 9y ago

The most tricky grey area is what someone consider "action". Physical contact is pretty obvious. And I think that's what you are talking about. But how about verbal (once agin, just simple "hello", not cat-calling)? Or just a look? If that's an attractive person looking at you you may find it pleasant. If that's an ugly/rude/whatever-reason-to-dislike person you will find it creepy, aggressive, whatnot. Another aspect I do not see mentioned in these discussions is "it's the guys who must be proactive" attitude which is common even among women. So some guys may feel like they must do something, alas, not always sure what and how to do it properly. And if we get to the point where saying "hello" to the person which does not like you (and you have no idea at that point) can be considered sexual harassment we are in the tough place. The best way to go would probably be make sure that guys understand once and for all that "no" means "no" and women to be encouraged to show their displeasure at once without being afraid that they will be judged for that.

anon1385 9y ago
>But how about verbal (once agin, just simple "hello", not cat-calling)? Firstly I've not seen any #metoo stories that were about guys just coming up and saying hello. If that was the extent of the problem we'd be in a much better place. But you're right in the sense that constantly having strange guys come up to you and introduce themselves, even politely, is something some do women complain about, because it can be incredibly annoying and emotionally draining to have to deal with that all the time whenever you are in public. Being forced to constantly reject people isn't nice. Also, even if the guy is polite and respectful, the woman won't know that until he has left, so the sight of a man approaching you just to say hello is probably going to come with some kind of defensive emotional reaction, because he might be one of the real assholes. To be honest personally it's something I find a bit creepy. I'd never do it myself. There are times when it can feel natural to strike up a conversation with a stranger (some kind of shared event or experience or whatever), but very rarely does it seem natural to me to just go up to complete strangers and introduce yourself, outside of the context of events very specifically designed for that. I'd find it pretty strange if a woman did it to me, no matter how attractive she was. >Another aspect I do not see mentioned in these discussions is "it's the guys who must be proactive" attitude which is common even among women. So some guys may feel like they must do something, alas, not always sure what and how to do it properly. This is part of what feminists mean when they talk about patriarchy; the expectation on men and women to conform to certain roles in sexual relationships is part of that. Patriarchy is bad for men as well! It is a problem that some guys feel obliged to be the proactive one, and a problem that a lot of dating "advice" for men is pretty much summarised as 'be more aggressive' rather than 'be more thoughtful'. There's a lot to be said on this topic about how we as society educate young men about what the beginnings of relationships look like and how we need to do so much better. >The best way to go would probably be make sure that guys understand once and for all that "no" means "no" and women to be encouraged to show their displeasure at once without being afraid that they will be judged for that. It shouldn't be the responsibility of women to have to say no to stop already in progress actions by men. Some situations obviously would be prevented/de-escalated by men knowing no means no. But that still leaves a lot of other situations. Events where women feel social or career pressure towards not saying no. Events where women were too drunk to say no (as in the article we're talking about). There's a whole lot of emotional complexity to a lot of these situations that can make it difficult to explicitly say no. Especially for young women/teens who are less experienced. One of the notable things about the stories posted by women this week is how young so many women were when they were first assaulted or raped, and how confused and guilty they felt about it. The emotional complexity of relationships is challenging for most adults, never mind children. That emotional burden can't be allowed to fall entirely on one party in specific instances or one gender in general.