4 ms·

I've considered a few times switching to a qwerty (from french azerty), but there are two things that made me pull back: 1. french people I know who use qwerty

I've considered a few times switching to a qwerty (from french azerty), but there are two things that made me pull back: 1. french people I know who use qwerty tend to not write any accentuated characters anymore. I'm ready to accept compose keys are usable, but it clearly seems to encourage incorrect spelling when you use a language with a lot of accentuated characters in a sentence 2. vim. I really don't see myself fighting to remap my habits and workflows, given what I perceive as very few benefits switching layout would provide

lmm 9y ago
> I'm ready to accept compose keys are usable, but it clearly seems to encourage incorrect spelling when you use a language with a lot of accentuated characters in a sentence I don't think it's at all clear, because most people don't have a compose key - only linux does that. > vim. I really don't see myself fighting to remap my habits and workflows, given what I perceive as very few benefits switching layout would provide Being able to use a default vim is very useful, and the default vim is qwerty-oriented. (It took me a long time to learn to use hjkl on Dvorak).
hiq 9y ago
1. If you care about your spelling, you just need to find the right layout (which would be "English (international AltGr dead keys)" on Debian), then it's almost as easy as the azerty keyboard: é : altgr + e ` : altgr + ` (then the letter) ¨ : shift + altgr + ' (then the letter) ^ : altgr + 6 (then the letter) If I remember correctly it's slightly easier to type é and è on an azerty keyboard, but not that much. 2. vim is qwerty centric, the best example for me was using CTRL-[ instead of ESC which actually makes sense on a qwerty but not on an azerty. It doesn't take that much time to learn new habits. Overall, I would advise against changing your layout unless there's another good reason. I decided to switch because I was using many computers with a qwerty layout, and only my personal computer was still with an azerty layout. It sounded more productive to just have one layout instead of having to think about it.
- oelmekki 9y ago
  Well, I guess it's a matter of preference, then, because I definitely feel like having to press 3 keys instead of one is indeed a problem when you have to do it four or five times per sentence :) A side note, btw, regarding CTRL-[ : it seems not to be well known, and it doesn't work on things that use "alt" to access file menu (like gvim), but using alt + <normal mode key> in insert mode instantly drops to normal mode and execute that key. For example, I usually leave insert mode by doing A-j or A-h, I never hit the ESC key. My favorite trick is `A-e a` when inside parenthesis to jump just after it and still be in insert mode, like when writing parameters to a function and jumping out of parameters list to add the `{` character.
reirob 9y ago
Hello, I'm living in France and I made the switch to qwerty and it was one of my best work-hacks in my live (after learning touch typing). It took around 3 weeks to get used. The advantage is soo huge! Just to take your fears - I'm a heavy VI user and I have to say after switching to qwerty you will get to love VI even more. Not even talking about programming. Regarding your concern with accents: Under Linux I am using English (International with AltGr dead keys) which allows me to compose accents by pressing AltGr then the key(s) that represent the accent and then the base character. So for à I press AltGr+Backtick and then 'a'. The advantage is that it gives me all of the accents that I need in Europe - there is no problem in writing German äÄöÖüÜß, and even for French you can easily have a œ in cœur - I would not even know how to get this one on an azerty keyboard. For Windows there is as well a possibility to install this layout. The other advantage is, that if you work a lot with different countries - I am remotely often on customer's computers via different remote sessions - then no matter what country, you always have qwerty - on Windows it's normally just one Alt+Shift away. Definitely good investment and I will not go back (by the way I had to learn 3 layouts in my life - German, then French and now I am so happy with qwerty.
- abecedarius 9y ago
  Has nobody made a kind of autocorrect that just adds accents and such? Of course you’d sometimes have to fix them yourself, but my experience so far learning French on an iPad (coming from English and not wanting to learn a new keyboard too) has been that this ought to be a reasonable approach.
  - oelmekki 9y ago
    I like the idea, actually. But I can guarantee that given how teachers/parents/old people always complain that young french people can't write french properly, they would brutally yell at this idea :)

lmm 9y ago

> I'm ready to accept compose keys are usable, but it clearly seems to encourage incorrect spelling when you use a language with a lot of accentuated characters in a sentence I don't think it's at all clear, because most people don't have a compose key - only linux does that. > vim. I really don't see myself fighting to remap my habits and workflows, given what I perceive as very few benefits switching layout would provide Being able to use a default vim is very useful, and the default vim is qwerty-oriented. (It took me a long time to learn to use hjkl on Dvorak).

hiq 9y ago

1. If you care about your spelling, you just need to find the right layout (which would be "English (international AltGr dead keys)" on Debian), then it's almost as easy as the azerty keyboard: é : altgr + e ` : altgr + ` (then the letter) ¨ : shift + altgr + ' (then the letter) ^ : altgr + 6 (then the letter) If I remember correctly it's slightly easier to type é and è on an azerty keyboard, but not that much. 2. vim is qwerty centric, the best example for me was using CTRL-[ instead of ESC which actually makes sense on a qwerty but not on an azerty. It doesn't take that much time to learn new habits. Overall, I would advise against changing your layout unless there's another good reason. I decided to switch because I was using many computers with a qwerty layout, and only my personal computer was still with an azerty layout. It sounded more productive to just have one layout instead of having to think about it.

oelmekki 9y ago
Well, I guess it's a matter of preference, then, because I definitely feel like having to press 3 keys instead of one is indeed a problem when you have to do it four or five times per sentence :) A side note, btw, regarding CTRL-[ : it seems not to be well known, and it doesn't work on things that use "alt" to access file menu (like gvim), but using alt + <normal mode key> in insert mode instantly drops to normal mode and execute that key. For example, I usually leave insert mode by doing A-j or A-h, I never hit the ESC key. My favorite trick is `A-e a` when inside parenthesis to jump just after it and still be in insert mode, like when writing parameters to a function and jumping out of parameters list to add the `{` character.

reirob 9y ago

Hello, I'm living in France and I made the switch to qwerty and it was one of my best work-hacks in my live (after learning touch typing). It took around 3 weeks to get used. The advantage is soo huge! Just to take your fears - I'm a heavy VI user and I have to say after switching to qwerty you will get to love VI even more. Not even talking about programming. Regarding your concern with accents: Under Linux I am using English (International with AltGr dead keys) which allows me to compose accents by pressing AltGr then the key(s) that represent the accent and then the base character. So for à I press AltGr+Backtick and then 'a'. The advantage is that it gives me all of the accents that I need in Europe - there is no problem in writing German äÄöÖüÜß, and even for French you can easily have a œ in cœur - I would not even know how to get this one on an azerty keyboard. For Windows there is as well a possibility to install this layout. The other advantage is, that if you work a lot with different countries - I am remotely often on customer's computers via different remote sessions - then no matter what country, you always have qwerty - on Windows it's normally just one Alt+Shift away. Definitely good investment and I will not go back (by the way I had to learn 3 layouts in my life - German, then French and now I am so happy with qwerty.

abecedarius 9y ago
Has nobody made a kind of autocorrect that just adds accents and such? Of course you’d sometimes have to fix them yourself, but my experience so far learning French on an iPad (coming from English and not wanting to learn a new keyboard too) has been that this ought to be a reasonable approach.
- oelmekki 9y ago
  I like the idea, actually. But I can guarantee that given how teachers/parents/old people always complain that young french people can't write french properly, they would brutally yell at this idea :)