7 ms·

You see a guy making a creepy move, you call him out. Simple as that. You don't know if it's "working" because she's trying to keep him at ease til she can da

by Frondo 9y ago

You see a guy making a creepy move, you call him out. Simple as that. You don't know if it's "working" because she's trying to keep him at ease til she can dash for the door, or why. See shitty, harassing, abusive behavior, call it out. For too long, we all let this stand. No more. Risk your job, risk short-term awkwardness, risk whatever because the women in the world deserve better than being targets while we stand around like cowards.

EwanToo 9y ago
Pretty sad that you've been voted down for this...
rimliu 9y ago
After #meetoo I was thinking how many someones' "how we met" stories would be #metoo stories, if parties had different view about each other. Alas, sometimes a difference between creepy and cute depends solely if the guy is attractive or not.
- jacalata 9y ago
  It is certainly possible to meet women in a way that is unambiguously not creepy, and you could always aim for that if you have trouble with where the line is.
  - rimliu 9y ago
    > in a way that is unambiguously not creepy Alas, no. When even simply looking (and I mean it, looking, not staring) can be classified as creepy you cannot be sure any more.
    - Frondo 9y ago
      It's not, and that's a bullshit response. No woman is saying "a man glanced at me and I felt harassed". They're asking not to be groped, not to have kisses forced on them, not to be raped. This "simply looking" comment is fucking garbage, and you need to readjust your perspective and attitudes.
      - dang 9y ago
        Would you please stop breaking the HN guidelines like this? Someone else being wrong doesn't mean the rules don't apply to you. Your comment would be much better, more powerful and convincing with just the second and third sentences. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        Frondo 9y ago
        You got it, Dan. Thanks for the heads-up.
        dang 9y ago
        Much appreciated!
        DonHopkins 9y ago
        Wait, your name is really "Dan"? I always assumed you were named after a Far Side cartoon... https://i.pinimg.com/564x/6a/eb/88/6aeb88bb92708a942a2563adb0c27d0b.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/564x/6a/eb/88/6aeb88bb92708a942a2563adb... https://i.pinimg.com/736x/61/f9/bb/61f9bb66cc0e79f06246876ba2f4f512--christmas-humor-merry-christmas.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/736x/61/f9/bb/61f9bb66cc0e79f06246876ba... https://i.pinimg.com/564x/42/88/59/42885918eb1332a5577d362388fa4ca4.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/564x/42/88/59/42885918eb1332a5577d36238... https://i.pinimg.com/564x/e4/d2/f3/e4d2f3b47c3de90e1a084d94ab24daa4.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/564x/e4/d2/f3/e4d2f3b47c3de90e1a084d94a... https://i.pinimg.com/564x/3b/c5/fd/3bc5fd323e791b6879529e6a5ab12dac.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/564x/3b/c5/fd/3bc5fd323e791b6879529e6a5... https://i.pinimg.com/564x/f8/74/40/f8744035e15d69eb8fd4c70dea17c2e0.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/564x/f8/74/40/f8744035e15d69eb8fd4c70de...
        dang 9y ago
        Yup: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7494093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7494093. Those are great comics. People should lament Snyder's retirement too, not just Watterson's.
- anon1385 9y ago
  The difference there isn't "the guy being attractive", it's consent. Yes that means sometimes actions that cross the line of aggressiveness turn out ok in the end because the woman was already receptive. That's not an excuse for engaging in this type of behaviour though, because without consent you don't know if you are just slightly expediting the start of a relationship, or if you are doing huge damage to a human being that, presumably, you are attracted to and care about. As the man, without knowing how she feels, why would you take the chance of destroying any chance of a relationship by gambling on what her reaction to your aggressive advances will be? I know there are grey areas here. Women know that too. In the vast majority of cases they aren't out to get you. A lot of women could tell you stories about guys who perhaps unknowingly crossed the line and how they still know and get on with those men and don't hate them. Women want to feel safe going about their day to day lives. Give them the opportunity to back out of situations. Make it clear that it's ok for them to say no. Apologise straight away when you fuck up.
  - rimliu 9y ago
    The most tricky grey area is what someone consider "action". Physical contact is pretty obvious. And I think that's what you are talking about. But how about verbal (once agin, just simple "hello", not cat-calling)? Or just a look? If that's an attractive person looking at you you may find it pleasant. If that's an ugly/rude/whatever-reason-to-dislike person you will find it creepy, aggressive, whatnot. Another aspect I do not see mentioned in these discussions is "it's the guys who must be proactive" attitude which is common even among women. So some guys may feel like they must do something, alas, not always sure what and how to do it properly. And if we get to the point where saying "hello" to the person which does not like you (and you have no idea at that point) can be considered sexual harassment we are in the tough place. The best way to go would probably be make sure that guys understand once and for all that "no" means "no" and women to be encouraged to show their displeasure at once without being afraid that they will be judged for that.
    - anon1385 9y ago
      >But how about verbal (once agin, just simple "hello", not cat-calling)? Firstly I've not seen any #metoo stories that were about guys just coming up and saying hello. If that was the extent of the problem we'd be in a much better place. But you're right in the sense that constantly having strange guys come up to you and introduce themselves, even politely, is something some do women complain about, because it can be incredibly annoying and emotionally draining to have to deal with that all the time whenever you are in public. Being forced to constantly reject people isn't nice. Also, even if the guy is polite and respectful, the woman won't know that until he has left, so the sight of a man approaching you just to say hello is probably going to come with some kind of defensive emotional reaction, because he might be one of the real assholes. To be honest personally it's something I find a bit creepy. I'd never do it myself. There are times when it can feel natural to strike up a conversation with a stranger (some kind of shared event or experience or whatever), but very rarely does it seem natural to me to just go up to complete strangers and introduce yourself, outside of the context of events very specifically designed for that. I'd find it pretty strange if a woman did it to me, no matter how attractive she was. >Another aspect I do not see mentioned in these discussions is "it's the guys who must be proactive" attitude which is common even among women. So some guys may feel like they must do something, alas, not always sure what and how to do it properly. This is part of what feminists mean when they talk about patriarchy; the expectation on men and women to conform to certain roles in sexual relationships is part of that. Patriarchy is bad for men as well! It is a problem that some guys feel obliged to be the proactive one, and a problem that a lot of dating "advice" for men is pretty much summarised as 'be more aggressive' rather than 'be more thoughtful'. There's a lot to be said on this topic about how we as society educate young men about what the beginnings of relationships look like and how we need to do so much better. >The best way to go would probably be make sure that guys understand once and for all that "no" means "no" and women to be encouraged to show their displeasure at once without being afraid that they will be judged for that. It shouldn't be the responsibility of women to have to say no to stop already in progress actions by men. Some situations obviously would be prevented/de-escalated by men knowing no means no. But that still leaves a lot of other situations. Events where women feel social or career pressure towards not saying no. Events where women were too drunk to say no (as in the article we're talking about). There's a whole lot of emotional complexity to a lot of these situations that can make it difficult to explicitly say no. Especially for young women/teens who are less experienced. One of the notable things about the stories posted by women this week is how young so many women were when they were first assaulted or raped, and how confused and guilty they felt about it. The emotional complexity of relationships is challenging for most adults, never mind children. That emotional burden can't be allowed to fall entirely on one party in specific instances or one gender in general.
- vidarh 9y ago
  Some, probably, but the way to avoid that when stepping into grey areas is to be predictable and upfront and give her plenty of opportunity to feel safe and secure in rebuffing your advances before you make that step. When I used to go clubbing years ago, if I was in doubt about whether my advances would be welcome, I'd slow down, lean back, smile, and then tell her exactly what my intent was. If her response was not very unambiguously positive, I'd add "but I don't think you're ready yet; let me get us some drinks", and I'd take my time. Sometimes they'd turn me down. Sometimes they'd have walked off by the time I was back, sometimes they'd smile and say "maybe later" or something of the sort, and sometime it was clear I was free to do what I wanted. Maybe some of those who turned me down would have liked it if I just went for it. But it's not worth the risk of traumatizing someone. The point being that while it may seem hot to just dive in and grab someone and start making out without warning, for example, misjudge and it's assault or worse, but you get 90% of the sexiness of it by doing the above and giving her every way out. So there's very little reason to risk stepping over those lines, and accordingly very little reason why it should be seen as acceptable even if some would welcome it in the right circumstances. (you still need to be careful - e.g. I'm a big guy, and can look intimidating; I'm very aware that means I need to take extra care that she feels like she has a genuine choice of leaving the situation or telling me to fuck off without putting herself at risk - if I tower over her, what is meant in a friendly way can easily seem like a threat)
digi_owl 9y ago
Would love to, except the person is likely to be the biggest gorilla in the room, and with bad enough impulse control that i would get a rearranged nose for my efforts.
- jacalata 9y ago
  I'd be very surprised if you only ever saw giant violent men being creepy.
- justin66 9y ago
  Depending on the situation, you might find living with a broken nose a lot easier than letting something go that you should not have. YMMV.
vidarh 9y ago
I agree, because if it is "working", then if you approach it reasonably, your concerns will just be addressed calmly, and often with a smile. Some peoples creepy can be another persons turn-on, but if the guy involved takes too much offense at you interceding, it's probably something she should know about before she takes things further. I've interceded before, e.g. an instance where two girls at a club seemed to be "surrounded" by four guys bringing one them drinks (the other one was refusing). It could have been family or friends, in which case they'd have told me, I'd have felt like an idiot and apologized. But it looked odd and looked like they were being cornered while the guys tried to get them drunk without drinking much themselves. When approaching them it quickly became clear one of the girls were dead drunk and her friend was scared of both the four other guys, and now me (for what she knew I might have come to join in), and tried getting her friend away from both. So I placed myself between the four guys and the girls and blocked the guys until the more sober friend was able to drag her drunk friend out of there. I don't know the story - it could have ended well without me, but it also couldn't, and the fact the guys were getting agitated made it clear I did the right thing (they didn't dare do more than try to push me out of the way, given that there were big bouncers near enough to see, though not near enough that I wanted to leave the girls alone long enough to bring one over). But I've also asked girls if they were ok, and gotten told, that yes, the guy is her boy friend, and to kindly leave them alone (sometimes with distinctly ruder wording), while the guy stood by and let her deal with it. No harm done by asking, and seeing the guys not have a problem with me checking if the woman in question is safe is in itself a good sign. I know that if anyone came up to my girlfriend to make sure she is safe when out, I'd be happy to see someone looking out for people, not feel threatened, because I have nothing to feel threatened about, and because I'd hope there are people like that around if she's out with girlfriends without me and someone tries anything.
- anon1385 9y ago
  Great post, thank you. I have to admit that I've never had the guts to directly intercede in a situation like that, although fortunately I've not seen many where I'd have considered it (more down to my lack of social life than these things being rare). It can be very difficult, especially if you are a young man without much relationship experience. It feels presumptuous and rude to intervene in other people's lives when you aren't sure how bad the situation is and what their relationship is. As I mentioned in another comment society is so so bad at giving people any kind of framework about how to begin relationships. If there are other people around who are also not intervening then that tends to reinforce the idea that it must be normal, acceptable behaviour. Even when it isn't. Older men have an important role in setting an example here. As you say, there are ways to try and help without direct confrontation. Get between the man and the woman to give her a chance to walk away. If you think something really bad is possible then stay in the room and don't leave them alone. I read an article by a woman a while ago talking about how older men in her life had subtly intervened in these kinds of situations to help her out, and how she hadn't realised at first. I wish I could find it now.
hycaria 9y ago
I know that's not malicious, but I'm kind of sick of being paternalized like this tbh. I can speak for myself, I don't need some nice guys to protect me. How is that doing any good to the female image, seriously ? "Help ladies out, call people on their mistakes". We just look like poor helpless victims who rely on others to be guarded from sexual predators.
- vidarh 9y ago
  If you speak out for yourself, awesome. Just as it's awesome that Quinn Norton felt able to take on Scoble herself, including threatening violence if he didn't back off. But not everyone feels able to, or not everyone are strong enough to be able to fight off an attacker. And sorry, but it's not always going to be possible for bystanders to tell if you're able speak for yourself and choosing not to, or if you're terrified of someone. In this case, note that the article involves lengthy attempts at escalating concern and attempts at defusing the situation during which it is clear that the first woman is too drunk to know what's going on. After which Quinn takes direct action. In the former, the person in question clearly was not able to look out for herself (that's different from whether she the following morning, after having sobered up, would have liked things to continue), while nobody else had to stand up for Quinn. Nobody is saying we should step in instead of you if you're able to take care of yourself. But we also shouldn't stand by and let you get assaulted if your for whatever reason isn't in a position where you can. And that's not about gender - women shouldn't stand by quietly either. I do agree with you in the limited extent that it could have been worded in a gender-neutral way: Guys can be victims too. It's not specifically about helping women, but about stepping in if someone might be in distress or are unable to meaningfully consent to something.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > How is that doing any good to the female image, seriously ? It's not actually about “the female image” at all. The ”say something” thing is, to the extent it's about gender image at all, about the male image, particularly what is normalized by and for men. It's about the fact that a culture wherein for many male gender image involves disregard for female agency, consent, and concern is unlikely to be changed as effectively if the only condemnation of the manifestations of that attitude come from the people whom it disregards.

by Frondo 9y ago

EwanToo 9y ago

Pretty sad that you've been voted down for this...

rimliu 9y ago

After #meetoo I was thinking how many someones' "how we met" stories would be #metoo stories, if parties had different view about each other. Alas, sometimes a difference between creepy and cute depends solely if the guy is attractive or not.

jacalata 9y ago
It is certainly possible to meet women in a way that is unambiguously not creepy, and you could always aim for that if you have trouble with where the line is.
- rimliu 9y ago
  > in a way that is unambiguously not creepy Alas, no. When even simply looking (and I mean it, looking, not staring) can be classified as creepy you cannot be sure any more.
  - Frondo 9y ago
    It's not, and that's a bullshit response. No woman is saying "a man glanced at me and I felt harassed". They're asking not to be groped, not to have kisses forced on them, not to be raped. This "simply looking" comment is fucking garbage, and you need to readjust your perspective and attitudes.
    - dang 9y ago
      Would you please stop breaking the HN guidelines like this? Someone else being wrong doesn't mean the rules don't apply to you. Your comment would be much better, more powerful and convincing with just the second and third sentences. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - Frondo 9y ago
        You got it, Dan. Thanks for the heads-up.
        dang 9y ago
        Much appreciated!
        DonHopkins 9y ago
        Wait, your name is really "Dan"? I always assumed you were named after a Far Side cartoon... https://i.pinimg.com/564x/6a/eb/88/6aeb88bb92708a942a2563adb0c27d0b.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/564x/6a/eb/88/6aeb88bb92708a942a2563adb... https://i.pinimg.com/736x/61/f9/bb/61f9bb66cc0e79f06246876ba2f4f512--christmas-humor-merry-christmas.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/736x/61/f9/bb/61f9bb66cc0e79f06246876ba... https://i.pinimg.com/564x/42/88/59/42885918eb1332a5577d362388fa4ca4.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/564x/42/88/59/42885918eb1332a5577d36238... https://i.pinimg.com/564x/e4/d2/f3/e4d2f3b47c3de90e1a084d94ab24daa4.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/564x/e4/d2/f3/e4d2f3b47c3de90e1a084d94a... https://i.pinimg.com/564x/3b/c5/fd/3bc5fd323e791b6879529e6a5ab12dac.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/564x/3b/c5/fd/3bc5fd323e791b6879529e6a5... https://i.pinimg.com/564x/f8/74/40/f8744035e15d69eb8fd4c70dea17c2e0.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/564x/f8/74/40/f8744035e15d69eb8fd4c70de...
        dang 9y ago
        Yup: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7494093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7494093. Those are great comics. People should lament Snyder's retirement too, not just Watterson's.
anon1385 9y ago
The difference there isn't "the guy being attractive", it's consent. Yes that means sometimes actions that cross the line of aggressiveness turn out ok in the end because the woman was already receptive. That's not an excuse for engaging in this type of behaviour though, because without consent you don't know if you are just slightly expediting the start of a relationship, or if you are doing huge damage to a human being that, presumably, you are attracted to and care about. As the man, without knowing how she feels, why would you take the chance of destroying any chance of a relationship by gambling on what her reaction to your aggressive advances will be? I know there are grey areas here. Women know that too. In the vast majority of cases they aren't out to get you. A lot of women could tell you stories about guys who perhaps unknowingly crossed the line and how they still know and get on with those men and don't hate them. Women want to feel safe going about their day to day lives. Give them the opportunity to back out of situations. Make it clear that it's ok for them to say no. Apologise straight away when you fuck up.
- rimliu 9y ago
  The most tricky grey area is what someone consider "action". Physical contact is pretty obvious. And I think that's what you are talking about. But how about verbal (once agin, just simple "hello", not cat-calling)? Or just a look? If that's an attractive person looking at you you may find it pleasant. If that's an ugly/rude/whatever-reason-to-dislike person you will find it creepy, aggressive, whatnot. Another aspect I do not see mentioned in these discussions is "it's the guys who must be proactive" attitude which is common even among women. So some guys may feel like they must do something, alas, not always sure what and how to do it properly. And if we get to the point where saying "hello" to the person which does not like you (and you have no idea at that point) can be considered sexual harassment we are in the tough place. The best way to go would probably be make sure that guys understand once and for all that "no" means "no" and women to be encouraged to show their displeasure at once without being afraid that they will be judged for that.
  - anon1385 9y ago
    >But how about verbal (once agin, just simple "hello", not cat-calling)? Firstly I've not seen any #metoo stories that were about guys just coming up and saying hello. If that was the extent of the problem we'd be in a much better place. But you're right in the sense that constantly having strange guys come up to you and introduce themselves, even politely, is something some do women complain about, because it can be incredibly annoying and emotionally draining to have to deal with that all the time whenever you are in public. Being forced to constantly reject people isn't nice. Also, even if the guy is polite and respectful, the woman won't know that until he has left, so the sight of a man approaching you just to say hello is probably going to come with some kind of defensive emotional reaction, because he might be one of the real assholes. To be honest personally it's something I find a bit creepy. I'd never do it myself. There are times when it can feel natural to strike up a conversation with a stranger (some kind of shared event or experience or whatever), but very rarely does it seem natural to me to just go up to complete strangers and introduce yourself, outside of the context of events very specifically designed for that. I'd find it pretty strange if a woman did it to me, no matter how attractive she was. >Another aspect I do not see mentioned in these discussions is "it's the guys who must be proactive" attitude which is common even among women. So some guys may feel like they must do something, alas, not always sure what and how to do it properly. This is part of what feminists mean when they talk about patriarchy; the expectation on men and women to conform to certain roles in sexual relationships is part of that. Patriarchy is bad for men as well! It is a problem that some guys feel obliged to be the proactive one, and a problem that a lot of dating "advice" for men is pretty much summarised as 'be more aggressive' rather than 'be more thoughtful'. There's a lot to be said on this topic about how we as society educate young men about what the beginnings of relationships look like and how we need to do so much better. >The best way to go would probably be make sure that guys understand once and for all that "no" means "no" and women to be encouraged to show their displeasure at once without being afraid that they will be judged for that. It shouldn't be the responsibility of women to have to say no to stop already in progress actions by men. Some situations obviously would be prevented/de-escalated by men knowing no means no. But that still leaves a lot of other situations. Events where women feel social or career pressure towards not saying no. Events where women were too drunk to say no (as in the article we're talking about). There's a whole lot of emotional complexity to a lot of these situations that can make it difficult to explicitly say no. Especially for young women/teens who are less experienced. One of the notable things about the stories posted by women this week is how young so many women were when they were first assaulted or raped, and how confused and guilty they felt about it. The emotional complexity of relationships is challenging for most adults, never mind children. That emotional burden can't be allowed to fall entirely on one party in specific instances or one gender in general.
vidarh 9y ago
Some, probably, but the way to avoid that when stepping into grey areas is to be predictable and upfront and give her plenty of opportunity to feel safe and secure in rebuffing your advances before you make that step. When I used to go clubbing years ago, if I was in doubt about whether my advances would be welcome, I'd slow down, lean back, smile, and then tell her exactly what my intent was. If her response was not very unambiguously positive, I'd add "but I don't think you're ready yet; let me get us some drinks", and I'd take my time. Sometimes they'd turn me down. Sometimes they'd have walked off by the time I was back, sometimes they'd smile and say "maybe later" or something of the sort, and sometime it was clear I was free to do what I wanted. Maybe some of those who turned me down would have liked it if I just went for it. But it's not worth the risk of traumatizing someone. The point being that while it may seem hot to just dive in and grab someone and start making out without warning, for example, misjudge and it's assault or worse, but you get 90% of the sexiness of it by doing the above and giving her every way out. So there's very little reason to risk stepping over those lines, and accordingly very little reason why it should be seen as acceptable even if some would welcome it in the right circumstances. (you still need to be careful - e.g. I'm a big guy, and can look intimidating; I'm very aware that means I need to take extra care that she feels like she has a genuine choice of leaving the situation or telling me to fuck off without putting herself at risk - if I tower over her, what is meant in a friendly way can easily seem like a threat)

digi_owl 9y ago

Would love to, except the person is likely to be the biggest gorilla in the room, and with bad enough impulse control that i would get a rearranged nose for my efforts.

jacalata 9y ago
I'd be very surprised if you only ever saw giant violent men being creepy.
justin66 9y ago
Depending on the situation, you might find living with a broken nose a lot easier than letting something go that you should not have. YMMV.

vidarh 9y ago

I agree, because if it is "working", then if you approach it reasonably, your concerns will just be addressed calmly, and often with a smile. Some peoples creepy can be another persons turn-on, but if the guy involved takes too much offense at you interceding, it's probably something she should know about before she takes things further. I've interceded before, e.g. an instance where two girls at a club seemed to be "surrounded" by four guys bringing one them drinks (the other one was refusing). It could have been family or friends, in which case they'd have told me, I'd have felt like an idiot and apologized. But it looked odd and looked like they were being cornered while the guys tried to get them drunk without drinking much themselves. When approaching them it quickly became clear one of the girls were dead drunk and her friend was scared of both the four other guys, and now me (for what she knew I might have come to join in), and tried getting her friend away from both. So I placed myself between the four guys and the girls and blocked the guys until the more sober friend was able to drag her drunk friend out of there. I don't know the story - it could have ended well without me, but it also couldn't, and the fact the guys were getting agitated made it clear I did the right thing (they didn't dare do more than try to push me out of the way, given that there were big bouncers near enough to see, though not near enough that I wanted to leave the girls alone long enough to bring one over). But I've also asked girls if they were ok, and gotten told, that yes, the guy is her boy friend, and to kindly leave them alone (sometimes with distinctly ruder wording), while the guy stood by and let her deal with it. No harm done by asking, and seeing the guys not have a problem with me checking if the woman in question is safe is in itself a good sign. I know that if anyone came up to my girlfriend to make sure she is safe when out, I'd be happy to see someone looking out for people, not feel threatened, because I have nothing to feel threatened about, and because I'd hope there are people like that around if she's out with girlfriends without me and someone tries anything.

anon1385 9y ago
Great post, thank you. I have to admit that I've never had the guts to directly intercede in a situation like that, although fortunately I've not seen many where I'd have considered it (more down to my lack of social life than these things being rare). It can be very difficult, especially if you are a young man without much relationship experience. It feels presumptuous and rude to intervene in other people's lives when you aren't sure how bad the situation is and what their relationship is. As I mentioned in another comment society is so so bad at giving people any kind of framework about how to begin relationships. If there are other people around who are also not intervening then that tends to reinforce the idea that it must be normal, acceptable behaviour. Even when it isn't. Older men have an important role in setting an example here. As you say, there are ways to try and help without direct confrontation. Get between the man and the woman to give her a chance to walk away. If you think something really bad is possible then stay in the room and don't leave them alone. I read an article by a woman a while ago talking about how older men in her life had subtly intervened in these kinds of situations to help her out, and how she hadn't realised at first. I wish I could find it now.

hycaria 9y ago

I know that's not malicious, but I'm kind of sick of being paternalized like this tbh. I can speak for myself, I don't need some nice guys to protect me. How is that doing any good to the female image, seriously ? "Help ladies out, call people on their mistakes". We just look like poor helpless victims who rely on others to be guarded from sexual predators.

vidarh 9y ago
If you speak out for yourself, awesome. Just as it's awesome that Quinn Norton felt able to take on Scoble herself, including threatening violence if he didn't back off. But not everyone feels able to, or not everyone are strong enough to be able to fight off an attacker. And sorry, but it's not always going to be possible for bystanders to tell if you're able speak for yourself and choosing not to, or if you're terrified of someone. In this case, note that the article involves lengthy attempts at escalating concern and attempts at defusing the situation during which it is clear that the first woman is too drunk to know what's going on. After which Quinn takes direct action. In the former, the person in question clearly was not able to look out for herself (that's different from whether she the following morning, after having sobered up, would have liked things to continue), while nobody else had to stand up for Quinn. Nobody is saying we should step in instead of you if you're able to take care of yourself. But we also shouldn't stand by and let you get assaulted if your for whatever reason isn't in a position where you can. And that's not about gender - women shouldn't stand by quietly either. I do agree with you in the limited extent that it could have been worded in a gender-neutral way: Guys can be victims too. It's not specifically about helping women, but about stepping in if someone might be in distress or are unable to meaningfully consent to something.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> How is that doing any good to the female image, seriously ? It's not actually about “the female image” at all. The ”say something” thing is, to the extent it's about gender image at all, about the male image, particularly what is normalized by and for men. It's about the fact that a culture wherein for many male gender image involves disregard for female agency, consent, and concern is unlikely to be changed as effectively if the only condemnation of the manifestations of that attitude come from the people whom it disregards.