8 ms·

> Yes, this. The antidote to bad men is good men. It doesn't help to tar all men with the same brush for simply being male. I'll add that there are plenty of o

by mercer 9y ago

> Yes, this. The antidote to bad men is good men. It doesn't help to tar all men with the same brush for simply being male. I'll add that there are plenty of otherwise good men who might do bad things when shitfaced or on drugs, and I can't help but worry that separating men into bad and good doesn't acknowledge the very real risk of good men forgetting that they can do bad things too. (of course this applies to people in general, not just men)

Mz 9y ago
Thank you. I agree. Pithiness and nuance are not friends. My preference overall is to focus on good vs bad behaviors, plus best practices, without drawing larger conclusions about individual moral worth.
samastur 9y ago
Not sure I would describe such people as good. Obviously not bad either since they can keep themselves in check otherwise, but goodness shouldn't be a description of you only under normal/advantageous circumstances.
guelo 9y ago
Personally I don't put that much weight on the drunkenness excuse. I've done many stupid things while drunk but, even while black-out drunk, I've never raped, sexually harassed or even physically assaulted anyone besides a couple self defense instances when I was younger. In my experience asshole drunks are asshole sober people too.
- jo55 9y ago
  I have a close family member who is a total asshole drunk and a perfect gentlemen sober. He might not be a rapist but I would say the entire family has been mentally abused over decades dealing with his bullshit.
- mercer 9y ago
  As far as drunkenness as an excuse I completely agree with you! I did not mean to bring it up so that we can excuse such behavior. But honestly I'm a bit baffled that you'd disagree that 1) good people do bad things, and 2) alcohol has a whole bunch of properties that increase the likelihood of an otherwise 'good' person doing a bad thing. It seems blindingly obvious to me. Or am I misunderstanding you and is it more about the 'excuse' thing (on which we're definitely in agreement!).
  - dEnigma 9y ago
    I think the parent would agree that alcohol increases the likelihood of "good people doing bad things"; but alcohol won't make a good person do a terrible thing, like rape.
    - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
      Not everyone reacts to drugs and alcohol the same way. Alcoholics often completely abstain from alcohol because once they have one drink, they can't stop. That kind of massive inhibition of control can extend into other things. It's not an excuse, but it can explain uncharacteristic behavior.
      - dEnigma 9y ago
        I'm still not quite convinced about this. Sure, you might lose all inhibition and just do whatever you want. But that would mean that a drunken rapist wants to rape, even while sober, but usually has the power to control himself. A good person, in my book, has no urge to rape at all, no matter the level of self-control he can muster up at any given moment. Does alcohol really change someone's personality on such a level as to make someone suddenly want to rape?
        TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
        I suppose this all boils down to what the definition of a "good person" is, which varies from person to person. I am of the personal belief that a person's actions determine who is good more than their desires. If a person walking through a gas station has a fleeting urge to steal a candy bar, that wouldn't make them bad in my eyes unless they actually steal it. If a person in the middle of an argument gets an urge to shove the other person but they suppress it, that shows discipline and maturity. I agree that it would be ideal if nobody had bad urges, but I think it's definitely good that many with those urges are able to control them.
- strken 9y ago
  It's a bad excuse, but a good thing to watch yourself for. The GP seems to mean it in the second sense, i.e. if you're the kind of man who gropes women when he gets drunk at code camp, you either shouldn't get drunk or shouldn't go to code camp. If you know you're going to fuck up, there's no point in saying "it's just willpower, I won't do it this time", because that doesn't work for alcoholics or heroin addicts or paedophiles and it won't work for molesters either.
- arethuza 9y ago
  I've known a few people who had complete personality changes after a small number of drinks (2 or 3) - mostly for the worse.
- jwr 9y ago
  We should hold people accountable for their actions. If they do evil things while drunk, they should not get drunk. Being drunk is no excuse.
JustSomeNobody 9y ago
Being drunk doesn’t make you rape someone. Being drunk drops the defenses of a person who is already more likely to rape. It shows more of their real personality.
- taternuts 9y ago
  I agree. You don't just randomly get an urge to do something you otherwise weren't already thinking about in some way. You just are not as good at caring/thinking about the consequences.
pault 9y ago
Education is key. Having observed the recent conversation around campus rape I realized that some of my behavior when I was younger was very gray area. Alcohol and lust dominated my thought processes in those situations, and it never occurred to me that my partner might feel differently about it later. Fortunately, as far as I know none of my partners ever felt taken advantage of, but if someone had sat me down and explicitly told me that a very drunk woman might not be able to give consent, I think I would have acted differently. We should be teaching young men and women where to draw the line, since it isn't always obvious in the heat of the moment.
Ntrails 9y ago
> otherwise good men who might do bad things when shitfaced or on drugs What is an "otherwise good man"? Someone who generally most of the time doesn't do horrific things? What a meaningless construct - you are the sum of all of your actions, all of your choices. That includes the choice to get into a state where you behaved badly even if you would not, whilst sober, behave in that way
- Mz 9y ago
  Sometimes, life is a bit more complicated than your remark suggests.
  - Ntrails 9y ago
    It really isn't. Sometimes people like to pretend that they're not responsible for their choices. That 10 years of helping old ladies put out their bins makes up for that one night of unacceptable behaviour. Oh, they say, but it's so out of character for him to have done that. What rot.
kindall 9y ago
A good man, if he does bad things when he's drunk, makes sure he's never drunk again. That's how you can tell he's a good man. Being drunk is an excuse for bad behavior exactly once.

by mercer 9y ago

Mz 9y ago

Thank you. I agree. Pithiness and nuance are not friends. My preference overall is to focus on good vs bad behaviors, plus best practices, without drawing larger conclusions about individual moral worth.

samastur 9y ago

Not sure I would describe such people as good. Obviously not bad either since they can keep themselves in check otherwise, but goodness shouldn't be a description of you only under normal/advantageous circumstances.

guelo 9y ago

Personally I don't put that much weight on the drunkenness excuse. I've done many stupid things while drunk but, even while black-out drunk, I've never raped, sexually harassed or even physically assaulted anyone besides a couple self defense instances when I was younger. In my experience asshole drunks are asshole sober people too.

jo55 9y ago
I have a close family member who is a total asshole drunk and a perfect gentlemen sober. He might not be a rapist but I would say the entire family has been mentally abused over decades dealing with his bullshit.
mercer 9y ago
As far as drunkenness as an excuse I completely agree with you! I did not mean to bring it up so that we can excuse such behavior. But honestly I'm a bit baffled that you'd disagree that 1) good people do bad things, and 2) alcohol has a whole bunch of properties that increase the likelihood of an otherwise 'good' person doing a bad thing. It seems blindingly obvious to me. Or am I misunderstanding you and is it more about the 'excuse' thing (on which we're definitely in agreement!).
- dEnigma 9y ago
  I think the parent would agree that alcohol increases the likelihood of "good people doing bad things"; but alcohol won't make a good person do a terrible thing, like rape.
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    Not everyone reacts to drugs and alcohol the same way. Alcoholics often completely abstain from alcohol because once they have one drink, they can't stop. That kind of massive inhibition of control can extend into other things. It's not an excuse, but it can explain uncharacteristic behavior.
    - dEnigma 9y ago
      I'm still not quite convinced about this. Sure, you might lose all inhibition and just do whatever you want. But that would mean that a drunken rapist wants to rape, even while sober, but usually has the power to control himself. A good person, in my book, has no urge to rape at all, no matter the level of self-control he can muster up at any given moment. Does alcohol really change someone's personality on such a level as to make someone suddenly want to rape?
      - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
        I suppose this all boils down to what the definition of a "good person" is, which varies from person to person. I am of the personal belief that a person's actions determine who is good more than their desires. If a person walking through a gas station has a fleeting urge to steal a candy bar, that wouldn't make them bad in my eyes unless they actually steal it. If a person in the middle of an argument gets an urge to shove the other person but they suppress it, that shows discipline and maturity. I agree that it would be ideal if nobody had bad urges, but I think it's definitely good that many with those urges are able to control them.
strken 9y ago
It's a bad excuse, but a good thing to watch yourself for. The GP seems to mean it in the second sense, i.e. if you're the kind of man who gropes women when he gets drunk at code camp, you either shouldn't get drunk or shouldn't go to code camp. If you know you're going to fuck up, there's no point in saying "it's just willpower, I won't do it this time", because that doesn't work for alcoholics or heroin addicts or paedophiles and it won't work for molesters either.
arethuza 9y ago
I've known a few people who had complete personality changes after a small number of drinks (2 or 3) - mostly for the worse.
jwr 9y ago
We should hold people accountable for their actions. If they do evil things while drunk, they should not get drunk. Being drunk is no excuse.

JustSomeNobody 9y ago

Being drunk doesn’t make you rape someone. Being drunk drops the defenses of a person who is already more likely to rape. It shows more of their real personality.

taternuts 9y ago
I agree. You don't just randomly get an urge to do something you otherwise weren't already thinking about in some way. You just are not as good at caring/thinking about the consequences.

pault 9y ago

Education is key. Having observed the recent conversation around campus rape I realized that some of my behavior when I was younger was very gray area. Alcohol and lust dominated my thought processes in those situations, and it never occurred to me that my partner might feel differently about it later. Fortunately, as far as I know none of my partners ever felt taken advantage of, but if someone had sat me down and explicitly told me that a very drunk woman might not be able to give consent, I think I would have acted differently. We should be teaching young men and women where to draw the line, since it isn't always obvious in the heat of the moment.

Ntrails 9y ago

> otherwise good men who might do bad things when shitfaced or on drugs What is an "otherwise good man"? Someone who generally most of the time doesn't do horrific things? What a meaningless construct - you are the sum of all of your actions, all of your choices. That includes the choice to get into a state where you behaved badly even if you would not, whilst sober, behave in that way

Mz 9y ago
Sometimes, life is a bit more complicated than your remark suggests.
- Ntrails 9y ago
  It really isn't. Sometimes people like to pretend that they're not responsible for their choices. That 10 years of helping old ladies put out their bins makes up for that one night of unacceptable behaviour. Oh, they say, but it's so out of character for him to have done that. What rot.

kindall 9y ago

A good man, if he does bad things when he's drunk, makes sure he's never drunk again. That's how you can tell he's a good man. Being drunk is an excuse for bad behavior exactly once.