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Real wages for everybody have been roughly flat for decades even as productivity and GDP/capita have skyrocketed. I wouldn't necessarily call this exploitation

Real wages for everybody have been roughly flat for decades even as productivity and GDP/capita have skyrocketed. I wouldn't necessarily call this exploitation since I think there's a broader issue in play, but it's not exactly like everybody, except this one isolated discriminated segment, is just thriving. And in particular I thinking framing this as an issue of discrimination works as a red herring against the aforementioned broader issue. That issue being that general increases in productivity and the percent of qualified individuals are resulting in a downward pressure on wages. The rapid growth in outsourcing, increases in foreign workers, free trade, and other such things also work to compound these issues. I do not believe there is any clear solution, but I think it's a shame that the focus is rarely placed on this issue. And when it is, it's often more in the context of jingoism than the issue itself.

speedplane 9y ago
I think you have it a bit backwards... you're suggesting that we should sideline equality and discrimination issues and focus on raising the boat for everyone. But the economy doesn't really work that way, it's the opposite. When the economy is doing well, fewer people complain... it doesn't matter if my neighbor makes more than me as long as I'm improving at a decent clip. But when the economy does less well, it's only reasonable for everyone to look at the inequities. But just because fewer people complain about inequities in a good economy doesn't mean that we should forget about them and solely focus on the economy overall. Curing inequities is a moral goal in its own right.
- indubitable 9y ago
  Right now the economy, by most all of the normal metrics, is doing extremely well. Yes real wages are flat, but the stock market is hitting record highs and accelerating, unemployment (even more realistic measures like U6) is lower than it's been in a long time, inflation is stable, and so on. So I don't think it's really reasonable to take as an assumption that people behave in a certain way during a bad economy and imply we're in a bad economy. I would completely agree with you [about the state of the economy], but this is not a majority view so we can't extrapolate outward. And a bit of a tangent here but the "it doesn't matter if my neighbor makes more than me as long as I'm improving at a decent clip" is also a bit dubious. One social study that has repeated and reproduced countless times is that people are happier being the king among rats than a pauper among kings. People ought care about themselves objectively. In reality we measure ourselves relatively. Kind of a bad trait for a species seeking to make global progress, but again - that's all a tangent that's way out there! As for my own view, the way to "cure inequities" is to ensure equal opportunity. It turns out time and again the medicine is rather worse than the disease when we start working to ensure equality of results. I'm actually in favor of this law since I see no positive result from employers asking for employee past earnings. What's offered to somebody should not be based on what they earned in the past like some sort of soft caste. It also takes another burden off applicants. However, I would be rather shocked to see this have any meaningful effect whatsoever. An employer is going to have a high price and a low price. I don't see removing one tidbit of information making all that of substantial changes to either, or the applicant's ability to more effectively hit the high. But I would absolutely love to be proven wrong.
  - speedplane 9y ago
    > Right now the economy, by most all of the normal metrics, is doing extremely well. Yes real wages are flat, but the stock market is hitting record highs and accelerating ... When stocks are up and wages are flat, it means that those with wealth get wealthier and a faster rate than those without wealth. Inequality worsens, and advancement is based not on what one is doing, but on what they started with. Not exactly equal opportunity.

speedplane 9y ago

I think you have it a bit backwards... you're suggesting that we should sideline equality and discrimination issues and focus on raising the boat for everyone. But the economy doesn't really work that way, it's the opposite. When the economy is doing well, fewer people complain... it doesn't matter if my neighbor makes more than me as long as I'm improving at a decent clip. But when the economy does less well, it's only reasonable for everyone to look at the inequities. But just because fewer people complain about inequities in a good economy doesn't mean that we should forget about them and solely focus on the economy overall. Curing inequities is a moral goal in its own right.

indubitable 9y ago
Right now the economy, by most all of the normal metrics, is doing extremely well. Yes real wages are flat, but the stock market is hitting record highs and accelerating, unemployment (even more realistic measures like U6) is lower than it's been in a long time, inflation is stable, and so on. So I don't think it's really reasonable to take as an assumption that people behave in a certain way during a bad economy and imply we're in a bad economy. I would completely agree with you [about the state of the economy], but this is not a majority view so we can't extrapolate outward. And a bit of a tangent here but the "it doesn't matter if my neighbor makes more than me as long as I'm improving at a decent clip" is also a bit dubious. One social study that has repeated and reproduced countless times is that people are happier being the king among rats than a pauper among kings. People ought care about themselves objectively. In reality we measure ourselves relatively. Kind of a bad trait for a species seeking to make global progress, but again - that's all a tangent that's way out there! As for my own view, the way to "cure inequities" is to ensure equal opportunity. It turns out time and again the medicine is rather worse than the disease when we start working to ensure equality of results. I'm actually in favor of this law since I see no positive result from employers asking for employee past earnings. What's offered to somebody should not be based on what they earned in the past like some sort of soft caste. It also takes another burden off applicants. However, I would be rather shocked to see this have any meaningful effect whatsoever. An employer is going to have a high price and a low price. I don't see removing one tidbit of information making all that of substantial changes to either, or the applicant's ability to more effectively hit the high. But I would absolutely love to be proven wrong.
- speedplane 9y ago
  > Right now the economy, by most all of the normal metrics, is doing extremely well. Yes real wages are flat, but the stock market is hitting record highs and accelerating ... When stocks are up and wages are flat, it means that those with wealth get wealthier and a faster rate than those without wealth. Inequality worsens, and advancement is based not on what one is doing, but on what they started with. Not exactly equal opportunity.