8 ms·

A History of Music Notation

128 points by fern12 9y ago

zeveb 9y ago
Pretty cool, but it leaves out http://www.byzantinechant.org/notation.html http://www.byzantinechant.org/notation.html (which looks, unsurprisingly, like a distant cousin of the Seikilos notation).
- delibaltas 9y ago
  I thought exactly the same. Maybe it is missing because this notation is still in use.
bane 9y ago
Musical notation is really interesting, a bit like mathematical notation. There's really only one standard way of doing it, both relatively recent, and both having histories going back thousands of years. There's a few oddball variants that survive, and almost all ancient systems just used strings of characters from whatever the local writing system was to represent the music, but did so imprecisely. Few of the systems even provided absolute pitch guides or timing and provided more of a sketch of the tune than a high precision description. For fun, try to come up with your own system from first principals without arriving at something that's kind of like what we use today and can still compactly describe just about any kind of music. Try the same with math notation. It's both hard and fun! I'm glad that they put in the avant guard entry, but a few musicians also have various kinds of shorthand. Here's an entry on Yanni's. https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-Yanni-cant-read-music https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-Yanni-cant-read-music
- 21 9y ago
  What do you think about the piano roll, which is extremely approachable and used extensively by modern producers (of popular songs) with zero to little schooling in the area. I think is the WYSIWYG of music notation (and just as DOC vs Latex, less powerful and less expressive) https://i.ytimg.com/vi/F5vcDzzqT7c/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/F5vcDzzqT7c/maxresdefault.jpg
  - necubi 9y ago
    It has a different purpose. Traditional music notation is meant to be read by humans, often very quickly (sight-reading at performance tempo might mean having less than 100ms to read each note). It also has to contain all relevant information in a single place (expression, technique, dynamics, etc).
  - klodolph 9y ago
    I have half a mind to write a FAQ for this… quick summary is that piano roll is based on chromatic scale, but most music uses diatonic scale, and doesn't notate phrasing well. There are some other factors but there are good reasons why composers overwhelmingly use traditional notation.
  - acjohnson55 9y ago
    As others have mentioned, it's kind of like drawing pixel by pixel. The key signature does a lot of leg work in allowing staff notation to easily depict the idioms of tonal music.
  - jcranmer 9y ago
    Since I'm not terribly great at the technicals of playing a piano, I thought I would do really well with a piano roll, but in practice, I find it much easier to read sheet music. Some reasons why: 1. Piano rolls spend a lot of visual real estate on functionally unimportant stuff. You need to see the full 7-octave range even if you need to play only 3-4 octaves at any given point of time. By contrast, traditional scores let you use clef changes or 8va/8vb notation to do access different ranges, allowing the full range to be compressed in around 2 inches or so of space. 2. Even worse than pitch range is the difference in the time dimension: when you have a piece that varies between long, sustained notes and bursts of short melodies, a traditional score can give you the pitch contour of the first part and the sufficient detail of the second part. A piano roll means that you either have to stretch the first bit out so long you can't see the overall contour or you have to make the second part so small as to be virtually unreadable (or, as I've found on some pieces, both!). Alternatively, you might opt for a non-uniform mapping on the time dimension, but that is probably going to screw players up big time. 3. Piano rolls (at least every one that I've seen) are unable to reflect useful ancillary information, such as dynamics, very effectively. Admittedly, traditional scores tend to suck at reflecting the true dynamics very well, but they are more than adequate for getting people to reproduce them in a rather recognizable way. It's kind of like written text and language--our written languages, even IPA, can't faithfully reproduce spectograms of human speech, but there's sufficient information to reproduce sounds that we can understand as pretty accurate speech. 4. It definitely seems a lot harder on a piano roll to recognize patterns that ease the actual playing of the tune. For example, seeing that this section is an earlier section at a different tempo, different key, different pitch, etc.
- jhanschoo 9y ago
  I've been of the notion that mathematical notation dates back to both Euclid and Aristotle... You don't have to know Greek to note the axioms and theorem-proof exposition style and symbolic notation of Euclid's Elements. https://el.wikisource.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%B9%CF%87%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%B1/%CE%B1#.CE.91.E1.BC.B0.CF.84.CE.AE.CE.BC.CE.B1.CF.84.CE.B1_.CE.B5.CE.84 https://el.wikisource.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%B9%CF%8....
  - bane 9y ago
    You really have to look at the original. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/P._Oxy._I_29.jpg/800px-P._Oxy._I_29.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/P.... The drawings are pretty interesting, but there's literally no notation, everything is described. Other civilization's ancient mathematics are similar "The sum of one and two is a value of three." Or they might shorthand it to "The sum of a and b is a value of c." And since that civilization hadn't invented discrete symbols for numbers yet, everybody just knows that a = 1, b = 2 and c = 3.
emptybits 9y ago
For those intrigued by alternative music notation, I highly recommend the book "Notations 21" by Theresa Sauer. It's a gorgeous hardcover "art book" with full-page examples of modern notation systems (generally quite stunning and artistic) by over 100 different musicians and/or composers. If you search Pinterest for the title and author you can see some examples.
mr_monkeywrench 9y ago
Carnatic, Hindustani?
archagon 9y ago
If anyone wants to mess around with “drawable” notation (along the lines of the “avant-garde” section), I made an iPad app called Composer’s Sketchpad[1] that lets you do just that. You can use it to sketch out complicated solos or mess around with microtonal music in a way that ordinary notation does not permit. I really need to give it a nice 2.0 makeover with full MIDI in/out, but making money on esoteric App Store software is hard! [1]: http://composerssketchpad.com http://composerssketchpad.com Bonus devblog: http://archagon.net/2016/02/05/composers-sketchpad/ http://archagon.net/2016/02/05/composers-sketchpad/
- baldfat 9y ago
  > but making money on esoteric App Store software is hard! You mean "but making money on App Store software is hard!"
  - hellofunk 9y ago
    You mean "but making money on software is hard!"
  - archagon 9y ago
    Yeah, but especially when your app costs money, is targeted at a niche audience, and doesn't have a good way to do continuous updates or IAP!
- evincarofautumn 9y ago
  This reminds me of Hyperscore[1], originally a project from the MIT Media Lab[2]. Had you heard of it before? If not, perhaps you could use it as a source of inspiration. I spent many enjoyable hours playing around with it before discovering other composition software such as Anvil Studio and FL Studio. [1]: https://hyperscore.wordpress.com/ https://hyperscore.wordpress.com/ [2]: https://www.media.mit.edu/research/groups/1450/hyperscore https://www.media.mit.edu/research/groups/1450/hyperscore
  - archagon 9y ago
    Yeah, it came up a few times! (Although I only found out about it after having already implemented the core of the app.) There are also things like fluXpad[1] which are much better suited for professional use, but at the same time far more limited in terms of expressiveness. [1]: http://mominstruments.com/fluxpad/ http://mominstruments.com/fluxpad/
flavio81 9y ago
Beautiful. In the XX century, many modern composers (like for example composers of serial music) invented diverse methods of music notation; it deserves to be explored in depth. Here are some truly fascinating examples of them! https://llllllll.co/t/experimental-music-notation-resources/149/10 https://llllllll.co/t/experimental-music-notation-resources/... And here https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/5-12-examples-of-experimental-music-notation-92223646/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/5-12-examples-of... Warning: This will blow your mind. EDIT: Also this link: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/5-12-examples-of-experimental-music-notation-92223646/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/5-12-examples-of...
indescions_2017 9y ago
Link to "Hurrian Hymn to Nikkal" c. 1500 BC. Modern arrangement could easily score the opening to a new David Fincher film ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AKedKrxoLI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AKedKrxoLI 21st Century notation software is fascinating in the way it bridges classical technique into contemporary sound production. It allows for the tiniest nuances in composition and engraving. A combinatorial ruleset of very high dimension indeed. While simultaneously integrating with state-of-the-art instrument synthesis and production software. It's just a remarkable attention to detail and UX design. I'm really inspired by it. Truly software as an "Extension of the Mind"! Dorico | Steinberg https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/dorico/start.html https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/dorico/start.html
smortaz 9y ago
one improvement to the current piano music notation is making both staves start/end on the same notes. ie, EGBDF for both. right now a student learns the "right hand" / treble staff to be EGBDF... you'll mentally learn that the third line is a B note - maybe natural/sharp/flat, but it's a B. great. now you learn the bass clef and all the work you did for the treble clef is not applicable anymore: cause it's GBDFA! WTH? the third line is now a D and not a B like before. sure, youre supposed to learn both clefs together, but especially for beginners and sight reading, it wouldve been nice if both had the same sequence. especially when theyre only a 3rd apart! a possible way to achieve this is to add an A to the top of the treble clef: EGBDF[A], and add and E to the bottom of the bass clef [E]GBDFA. now both are are easier to learn and you dont have to constantly shift a third in your head. the 3rd line is always a B in both staves. Another improvement, especially for piano music is to make the white/black key indication carried in the note shape/head. right now the note head carries duration information. it could also include whether it's a black key or white. this is useful especially for complex keys with many sharps/flats. this way whether you're in C major or Ab Minor, you dont have to constantly remember which notes are accidentals. sure, youre supposed to learn the scale and remember (including all the cancellations, double sharp/flats), but it's massively easier if this useful info is carried in the note shape. eg: square note head = black, triangle = white. sorry for the rant!
- pinneycolton 9y ago
  I'd argue that both scales do indeed "start" and "end" on the same note - middle C. If I were playing an arpeggio that spanned both staves, I think I'd find your method harder than simply moving in thirds from the E on the treble clef to middle C to the A on the bass clef. Interestingly enough, other clefs do already exist. The "C" clefs (alto and tenor clef) identify middle C and simplify note reading for instruments that have atypical tessiturae.
  - acjohnson55 9y ago
    Fun fact, the : of the bass clef and the spiral of the treble clef indicate the F and G, respectively, which the clefs are stylized versions of.
erasmuse 9y ago
I think modern musical notation could be improved by making a more readily apparent distinction between phrase marks and tied notes. As it is one often has to read ahead on a tied note to see if is tied or not, which costs attention.
- JasonFruit 9y ago
  You have to be reading ahead anyway to be physically prepared for the next notes. This is a problem only for the nearly musically-illiterate.
  - erasmuse 9y ago
    Sure but I could be reading even further ahead if I didn't have to carefully trace the horizontal line from a tied note (to see if it stays on the same level or if it jumps to another note). On the other hand if it were, say, a thicker line, or a broken line, or a line of different colour, or a something-else-to-distinguish-it-from-a-phrase-mark, then I could be utilising that time more fruitfully.
rdtsc 9y ago
There is also Byzantine Notation https://orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Notation https://orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Notation The interesting thing there I found "Byzantine notation, on the other hand, is relational; the note is dependent on the previous note and the symbol itself, which specifies the interval from the previous note. " EDIT: Saw Ethiopian notation there and got curious and found this chant (performance?) from a music school from Addis Ababa https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iztBcn3UZIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iztBcn3UZIA
jcelerier 9y ago
Shameless plug: [Ossia Score, a visual programming paradigm which can be used to make music and other creative applications](https://www.ossia.io https://www.ossia.io). Unlike many software in this category, it is not centered on the idea of data flow, but on time flow as main interaction paradigm (eg it looks more like a sequencer than a patcher), while still allowing programming elements.
zde 9y ago
Sadly, they miss the important ones. http://noname.c64.org/tracker/manual_online.php http://noname.c64.org/tracker/manual_online.php

128 points by fern12 9y ago

Pretty cool, but it leaves out http://www.byzantinechant.org/notation.html http://www.byzantinechant.org/notation.html (which looks, unsurprisingly, like a distant cousin of the Seikilos notation).

delibaltas 9y ago
I thought exactly the same. Maybe it is missing because this notation is still in use.

bane 9y ago

Musical notation is really interesting, a bit like mathematical notation. There's really only one standard way of doing it, both relatively recent, and both having histories going back thousands of years. There's a few oddball variants that survive, and almost all ancient systems just used strings of characters from whatever the local writing system was to represent the music, but did so imprecisely. Few of the systems even provided absolute pitch guides or timing and provided more of a sketch of the tune than a high precision description. For fun, try to come up with your own system from first principals without arriving at something that's kind of like what we use today and can still compactly describe just about any kind of music. Try the same with math notation. It's both hard and fun! I'm glad that they put in the avant guard entry, but a few musicians also have various kinds of shorthand. Here's an entry on Yanni's. https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-Yanni-cant-read-music https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-Yanni-cant-read-music

21 9y ago
What do you think about the piano roll, which is extremely approachable and used extensively by modern producers (of popular songs) with zero to little schooling in the area. I think is the WYSIWYG of music notation (and just as DOC vs Latex, less powerful and less expressive) https://i.ytimg.com/vi/F5vcDzzqT7c/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/F5vcDzzqT7c/maxresdefault.jpg
- necubi 9y ago
  It has a different purpose. Traditional music notation is meant to be read by humans, often very quickly (sight-reading at performance tempo might mean having less than 100ms to read each note). It also has to contain all relevant information in a single place (expression, technique, dynamics, etc).
- klodolph 9y ago
  I have half a mind to write a FAQ for this… quick summary is that piano roll is based on chromatic scale, but most music uses diatonic scale, and doesn't notate phrasing well. There are some other factors but there are good reasons why composers overwhelmingly use traditional notation.
- acjohnson55 9y ago
  As others have mentioned, it's kind of like drawing pixel by pixel. The key signature does a lot of leg work in allowing staff notation to easily depict the idioms of tonal music.
- jcranmer 9y ago
  Since I'm not terribly great at the technicals of playing a piano, I thought I would do really well with a piano roll, but in practice, I find it much easier to read sheet music. Some reasons why: 1. Piano rolls spend a lot of visual real estate on functionally unimportant stuff. You need to see the full 7-octave range even if you need to play only 3-4 octaves at any given point of time. By contrast, traditional scores let you use clef changes or 8va/8vb notation to do access different ranges, allowing the full range to be compressed in around 2 inches or so of space. 2. Even worse than pitch range is the difference in the time dimension: when you have a piece that varies between long, sustained notes and bursts of short melodies, a traditional score can give you the pitch contour of the first part and the sufficient detail of the second part. A piano roll means that you either have to stretch the first bit out so long you can't see the overall contour or you have to make the second part so small as to be virtually unreadable (or, as I've found on some pieces, both!). Alternatively, you might opt for a non-uniform mapping on the time dimension, but that is probably going to screw players up big time. 3. Piano rolls (at least every one that I've seen) are unable to reflect useful ancillary information, such as dynamics, very effectively. Admittedly, traditional scores tend to suck at reflecting the true dynamics very well, but they are more than adequate for getting people to reproduce them in a rather recognizable way. It's kind of like written text and language--our written languages, even IPA, can't faithfully reproduce spectograms of human speech, but there's sufficient information to reproduce sounds that we can understand as pretty accurate speech. 4. It definitely seems a lot harder on a piano roll to recognize patterns that ease the actual playing of the tune. For example, seeing that this section is an earlier section at a different tempo, different key, different pitch, etc.
jhanschoo 9y ago
I've been of the notion that mathematical notation dates back to both Euclid and Aristotle... You don't have to know Greek to note the axioms and theorem-proof exposition style and symbolic notation of Euclid's Elements. https://el.wikisource.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%B9%CF%87%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%B1/%CE%B1#.CE.91.E1.BC.B0.CF.84.CE.AE.CE.BC.CE.B1.CF.84.CE.B1_.CE.B5.CE.84 https://el.wikisource.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%B9%CF%8....
- bane 9y ago
  You really have to look at the original. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/P._Oxy._I_29.jpg/800px-P._Oxy._I_29.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/P.... The drawings are pretty interesting, but there's literally no notation, everything is described. Other civilization's ancient mathematics are similar "The sum of one and two is a value of three." Or they might shorthand it to "The sum of a and b is a value of c." And since that civilization hadn't invented discrete symbols for numbers yet, everybody just knows that a = 1, b = 2 and c = 3.

emptybits 9y ago

For those intrigued by alternative music notation, I highly recommend the book "Notations 21" by Theresa Sauer. It's a gorgeous hardcover "art book" with full-page examples of modern notation systems (generally quite stunning and artistic) by over 100 different musicians and/or composers. If you search Pinterest for the title and author you can see some examples.

mr_monkeywrench 9y ago

Carnatic, Hindustani?

archagon 9y ago

If anyone wants to mess around with “drawable” notation (along the lines of the “avant-garde” section), I made an iPad app called Composer’s Sketchpad[1] that lets you do just that. You can use it to sketch out complicated solos or mess around with microtonal music in a way that ordinary notation does not permit. I really need to give it a nice 2.0 makeover with full MIDI in/out, but making money on esoteric App Store software is hard! [1]: http://composerssketchpad.com http://composerssketchpad.com Bonus devblog: http://archagon.net/2016/02/05/composers-sketchpad/ http://archagon.net/2016/02/05/composers-sketchpad/

baldfat 9y ago
> but making money on esoteric App Store software is hard! You mean "but making money on App Store software is hard!"
- hellofunk 9y ago
  You mean "but making money on software is hard!"
- archagon 9y ago
  Yeah, but especially when your app costs money, is targeted at a niche audience, and doesn't have a good way to do continuous updates or IAP!
evincarofautumn 9y ago
This reminds me of Hyperscore[1], originally a project from the MIT Media Lab[2]. Had you heard of it before? If not, perhaps you could use it as a source of inspiration. I spent many enjoyable hours playing around with it before discovering other composition software such as Anvil Studio and FL Studio. [1]: https://hyperscore.wordpress.com/ https://hyperscore.wordpress.com/ [2]: https://www.media.mit.edu/research/groups/1450/hyperscore https://www.media.mit.edu/research/groups/1450/hyperscore
- archagon 9y ago
  Yeah, it came up a few times! (Although I only found out about it after having already implemented the core of the app.) There are also things like fluXpad[1] which are much better suited for professional use, but at the same time far more limited in terms of expressiveness. [1]: http://mominstruments.com/fluxpad/ http://mominstruments.com/fluxpad/

flavio81 9y ago

Beautiful. In the XX century, many modern composers (like for example composers of serial music) invented diverse methods of music notation; it deserves to be explored in depth. Here are some truly fascinating examples of them! https://llllllll.co/t/experimental-music-notation-resources/149/10 https://llllllll.co/t/experimental-music-notation-resources/... And here https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/5-12-examples-of-experimental-music-notation-92223646/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/5-12-examples-of... Warning: This will blow your mind. EDIT: Also this link: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/5-12-examples-of-experimental-music-notation-92223646/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/5-12-examples-of...

indescions_2017 9y ago

Link to "Hurrian Hymn to Nikkal" c. 1500 BC. Modern arrangement could easily score the opening to a new David Fincher film ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AKedKrxoLI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AKedKrxoLI 21st Century notation software is fascinating in the way it bridges classical technique into contemporary sound production. It allows for the tiniest nuances in composition and engraving. A combinatorial ruleset of very high dimension indeed. While simultaneously integrating with state-of-the-art instrument synthesis and production software. It's just a remarkable attention to detail and UX design. I'm really inspired by it. Truly software as an "Extension of the Mind"! Dorico | Steinberg https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/dorico/start.html https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/dorico/start.html

smortaz 9y ago

one improvement to the current piano music notation is making both staves start/end on the same notes. ie, EGBDF for both. right now a student learns the "right hand" / treble staff to be EGBDF... you'll mentally learn that the third line is a B note - maybe natural/sharp/flat, but it's a B. great. now you learn the bass clef and all the work you did for the treble clef is not applicable anymore: cause it's GBDFA! WTH? the third line is now a D and not a B like before. sure, youre supposed to learn both clefs together, but especially for beginners and sight reading, it wouldve been nice if both had the same sequence. especially when theyre only a 3rd apart! a possible way to achieve this is to add an A to the top of the treble clef: EGBDF[A], and add and E to the bottom of the bass clef [E]GBDFA. now both are are easier to learn and you dont have to constantly shift a third in your head. the 3rd line is always a B in both staves. Another improvement, especially for piano music is to make the white/black key indication carried in the note shape/head. right now the note head carries duration information. it could also include whether it's a black key or white. this is useful especially for complex keys with many sharps/flats. this way whether you're in C major or Ab Minor, you dont have to constantly remember which notes are accidentals. sure, youre supposed to learn the scale and remember (including all the cancellations, double sharp/flats), but it's massively easier if this useful info is carried in the note shape. eg: square note head = black, triangle = white. sorry for the rant!

pinneycolton 9y ago
I'd argue that both scales do indeed "start" and "end" on the same note - middle C. If I were playing an arpeggio that spanned both staves, I think I'd find your method harder than simply moving in thirds from the E on the treble clef to middle C to the A on the bass clef. Interestingly enough, other clefs do already exist. The "C" clefs (alto and tenor clef) identify middle C and simplify note reading for instruments that have atypical tessiturae.
- acjohnson55 9y ago
  Fun fact, the : of the bass clef and the spiral of the treble clef indicate the F and G, respectively, which the clefs are stylized versions of.

erasmuse 9y ago

I think modern musical notation could be improved by making a more readily apparent distinction between phrase marks and tied notes. As it is one often has to read ahead on a tied note to see if is tied or not, which costs attention.

JasonFruit 9y ago
You have to be reading ahead anyway to be physically prepared for the next notes. This is a problem only for the nearly musically-illiterate.
- erasmuse 9y ago
  Sure but I could be reading even further ahead if I didn't have to carefully trace the horizontal line from a tied note (to see if it stays on the same level or if it jumps to another note). On the other hand if it were, say, a thicker line, or a broken line, or a line of different colour, or a something-else-to-distinguish-it-from-a-phrase-mark, then I could be utilising that time more fruitfully.

rdtsc 9y ago

There is also Byzantine Notation https://orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Notation https://orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Notation The interesting thing there I found "Byzantine notation, on the other hand, is relational; the note is dependent on the previous note and the symbol itself, which specifies the interval from the previous note. " EDIT: Saw Ethiopian notation there and got curious and found this chant (performance?) from a music school from Addis Ababa https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iztBcn3UZIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iztBcn3UZIA

jcelerier 9y ago

Shameless plug: [Ossia Score, a visual programming paradigm which can be used to make music and other creative applications](https://www.ossia.io https://www.ossia.io). Unlike many software in this category, it is not centered on the idea of data flow, but on time flow as main interaction paradigm (eg it looks more like a sequencer than a patcher), while still allowing programming elements.

zde 9y ago

Sadly, they miss the important ones. http://noname.c64.org/tracker/manual_online.php http://noname.c64.org/tracker/manual_online.php