4 ms·

Affirmative action _is_ racism, by definition, assuming you mean by that: basing your decision to hire in part on race. Re. McVeigh, do you mean http://www.cat

Affirmative action _is_ racism, by definition, assuming you mean by that: basing your decision to hire in part on race. Re. McVeigh, do you mean http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/reflections-on-mcveigh.html http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/reflections-on-mcveigh.html? Because that doesn't seem like a defense of McVeigh to me. From the article: > This seems to me like a way to avoid facing the really hard questions. Questions which begin with this one: where and when and how did Timothy McVeigh learn to think of taking the lives of innocent women and children as acceptable "collateral damage"?

DonHopkins 9y ago
If you think that the definition of racism is "basing your decision to hire in part on race", then you don't understand what racism is. http://www.agjohnson.us/glad/is-affirmative-action-racist/ http://www.agjohnson.us/glad/is-affirmative-action-racist/ "But the most important reason to reject the argument that affirmative action is racist is that it ignores what racism actually is. The whole point of any racist practice is to preserve and enforce the privilege – the dominance and unearned advantage – of the dominant group by systematically excluding and oppressing members of the subordinate group. This has never been the purpose of affirmative action, either in theory or in practice. It has been just the opposite – a modest attempt to shift the odds away from being so heavily loaded in favor of whites in an environment that is still overwhelmingly white dominated, identified, and centered."
- tptacek 9y ago
  While I agree with your position on affirmative action and not your interlocutor's, there's more than enough direct evidence of white supremacy on Raymond's part to let us skirt this particular unproductive debate and focus on the more obviously objective stuff. Actually, I'm not totally confident that ESR is really a racist. I think it's possible that he might just be profoundly, narcissistically insecure. The more you read him (I've read every ESR G+ post, every ESR blog post, and every ESR-authored comment on every ESR blog post for the past 2 years), the more you come to realize the truth that every kind of person that is not ESR is somehow intrinsically flawed, while ESR himself is one of the most important people on the planet, almost singlehandedly (if you don't count Dave Taht) responsible for the security of the Internet and of revolutionary movements in Iran, plugged directly into the most sensitive sources in law enforcement (wait 'till you read what he's learned about the Las Vegas shooter; it'll change forever what you thought you knew about ANTIFA, BLM, and Islam). I think it might be tough to reckon with that kind of overwhelmingly disordered view of the world, and that white nationalism and mens-rights-ism and similar ideologies offer him a mental framework in which his weird belief of himself at the center of the world might just make sense. I'd be sad, except, seriously? Fuck that guy. In the eye socket, forever.
  - DonHopkins 9y ago
    I've had his schtick figured out for decades, and it's very tired and never changes. The whole "Blacks are lazy" fiasco was Russ unsuccessfully attempting to emulate ESR, the highest complement he could pay to his bro. Which is why ESR defended him so exuberantly. It was an orgy of narcissistic supply. ESR's schtick: He's always trying to show off how intelligent he is by making a totally outrageous asinine statement he knows isn't true and is totally offensive, and then trying to prove he's so clever that he CAN justify it through mental tricks, verbal gymnastics and gerrymandered taxonomies. He does it again and again. Every one of his posts is just like that. And his minions eat it up, because he appeals directly and systematically to their prejudices and hatred. So technically, in a certain sense, no, he's not racist, because he doesn't believe a fucking thing he says. He's something much worse than racist: Eric the Flute is a Pied Piper of racism, someone who feeds and thrives from other people's racism, sexism and hatred. Hmm, can you think of anyone else who's mastered this technique?
    - kevinmchugh 9y ago
      > He's always trying to show off how intelligent he is by making a totally outrageous asinine statement he knows isn't true and is totally offensive, and then trying to prove he's so clever that he CAN justify it through mental tricks, verbal gymnastics and gerrymandered taxonomies. I'm reminded of this post: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6839 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6839. Here he declares himself the most famous programmer ever. Even by his own criteria, notch of minecraft fame is significantly more famous.
      - tptacek 9y ago
        Here's instructive to consider, after reading "Are you the most famous programmer in the world? It's a reasonable question to ask", exactly what it is that Eric Raymond has programmed...
        DonHopkins 9y ago
        His software work is unremarkable (fetchmail is trivial and buggy, and CML2 was rejected by the Linux kernel developers), and he's made his career not by writing software but by attacking real hackers like Richard Stallman and trying to bring down their work, not by actually constructively developing any useful software himself. Attacking real hackers and trying to discourage people from using "free software" isn't "hacking". When I knew him during the 80's, he would go on and on ad nauseum about his beloved "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle NetNews Reader" and how so much better than every other netnews reader. But he never collaborated with anyone, and he never released it under any license. Much more Bizarre than Cathedral.
- duncan_bayne 9y ago
  Or, perhaps I have a definition of racism that treats it as a form of wrong thinking that is at root collectivist, and which is a prerequisite for racism as racial supremacy. Which I think is what you mean by racism? That is, thinking that is both what I describe as racist, and also geared towards establishing or preserving political power over another race or races? Kindly don't presume to tell me what I do or don't understand.
  - DonHopkins 9y ago
    Kindly don't parrot white supremacist propaganda. My most terrible presumption is that you DO actually understand what you're doing, but I'm pointing it out and giving you the benefit of the doubt, in case you're just ESR's unwitting fool, not acting as his flying monkey, parroting his propaganda here on purpose. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_monkeys_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_monkeys_(psychology) https://pro.psychcentral.com/recovery-expert/2016/07/the-narcissists-flying-monkeys/ https://pro.psychcentral.com/recovery-expert/2016/07/the-nar... http://flyingmonkeysdenied.com/ http://flyingmonkeysdenied.com/
    - duncan_bayne 9y ago
      What makes you think that anything about my opinion of affirmative action has anything to do with ESR? Here's a clue: https://ari.aynrand.org/issues/culture-and-society/more/Racism https://ari.aynrand.org/issues/culture-and-society/more/Raci... Last I asked, ESR wasn't an Objectivist, and in fact we disagree on some fairly fundamental issues of epistemology. He's a fucking pagan, for starters! I don't know what your beef is with ESR, but the whole world doesn't revolve around him, man.
matt4077 9y ago
Affirmative action is to racism as compensation is to theft.
- duncan_bayne 9y ago
  If you take the money for compensation from random strangers based on the colour of their skin, I'd buy that analogy.

DonHopkins 9y ago

If you think that the definition of racism is "basing your decision to hire in part on race", then you don't understand what racism is. http://www.agjohnson.us/glad/is-affirmative-action-racist/ http://www.agjohnson.us/glad/is-affirmative-action-racist/ "But the most important reason to reject the argument that affirmative action is racist is that it ignores what racism actually is. The whole point of any racist practice is to preserve and enforce the privilege – the dominance and unearned advantage – of the dominant group by systematically excluding and oppressing members of the subordinate group. This has never been the purpose of affirmative action, either in theory or in practice. It has been just the opposite – a modest attempt to shift the odds away from being so heavily loaded in favor of whites in an environment that is still overwhelmingly white dominated, identified, and centered."

tptacek 9y ago
While I agree with your position on affirmative action and not your interlocutor's, there's more than enough direct evidence of white supremacy on Raymond's part to let us skirt this particular unproductive debate and focus on the more obviously objective stuff. Actually, I'm not totally confident that ESR is really a racist. I think it's possible that he might just be profoundly, narcissistically insecure. The more you read him (I've read every ESR G+ post, every ESR blog post, and every ESR-authored comment on every ESR blog post for the past 2 years), the more you come to realize the truth that every kind of person that is not ESR is somehow intrinsically flawed, while ESR himself is one of the most important people on the planet, almost singlehandedly (if you don't count Dave Taht) responsible for the security of the Internet and of revolutionary movements in Iran, plugged directly into the most sensitive sources in law enforcement (wait 'till you read what he's learned about the Las Vegas shooter; it'll change forever what you thought you knew about ANTIFA, BLM, and Islam). I think it might be tough to reckon with that kind of overwhelmingly disordered view of the world, and that white nationalism and mens-rights-ism and similar ideologies offer him a mental framework in which his weird belief of himself at the center of the world might just make sense. I'd be sad, except, seriously? Fuck that guy. In the eye socket, forever.
- DonHopkins 9y ago
  I've had his schtick figured out for decades, and it's very tired and never changes. The whole "Blacks are lazy" fiasco was Russ unsuccessfully attempting to emulate ESR, the highest complement he could pay to his bro. Which is why ESR defended him so exuberantly. It was an orgy of narcissistic supply. ESR's schtick: He's always trying to show off how intelligent he is by making a totally outrageous asinine statement he knows isn't true and is totally offensive, and then trying to prove he's so clever that he CAN justify it through mental tricks, verbal gymnastics and gerrymandered taxonomies. He does it again and again. Every one of his posts is just like that. And his minions eat it up, because he appeals directly and systematically to their prejudices and hatred. So technically, in a certain sense, no, he's not racist, because he doesn't believe a fucking thing he says. He's something much worse than racist: Eric the Flute is a Pied Piper of racism, someone who feeds and thrives from other people's racism, sexism and hatred. Hmm, can you think of anyone else who's mastered this technique?
  - kevinmchugh 9y ago
    > He's always trying to show off how intelligent he is by making a totally outrageous asinine statement he knows isn't true and is totally offensive, and then trying to prove he's so clever that he CAN justify it through mental tricks, verbal gymnastics and gerrymandered taxonomies. I'm reminded of this post: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6839 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6839. Here he declares himself the most famous programmer ever. Even by his own criteria, notch of minecraft fame is significantly more famous.
    - tptacek 9y ago
      Here's instructive to consider, after reading "Are you the most famous programmer in the world? It's a reasonable question to ask", exactly what it is that Eric Raymond has programmed...
      - DonHopkins 9y ago
        His software work is unremarkable (fetchmail is trivial and buggy, and CML2 was rejected by the Linux kernel developers), and he's made his career not by writing software but by attacking real hackers like Richard Stallman and trying to bring down their work, not by actually constructively developing any useful software himself. Attacking real hackers and trying to discourage people from using "free software" isn't "hacking". When I knew him during the 80's, he would go on and on ad nauseum about his beloved "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle NetNews Reader" and how so much better than every other netnews reader. But he never collaborated with anyone, and he never released it under any license. Much more Bizarre than Cathedral.
duncan_bayne 9y ago
Or, perhaps I have a definition of racism that treats it as a form of wrong thinking that is at root collectivist, and which is a prerequisite for racism as racial supremacy. Which I think is what you mean by racism? That is, thinking that is both what I describe as racist, and also geared towards establishing or preserving political power over another race or races? Kindly don't presume to tell me what I do or don't understand.
- DonHopkins 9y ago
  Kindly don't parrot white supremacist propaganda. My most terrible presumption is that you DO actually understand what you're doing, but I'm pointing it out and giving you the benefit of the doubt, in case you're just ESR's unwitting fool, not acting as his flying monkey, parroting his propaganda here on purpose. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_monkeys_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_monkeys_(psychology) https://pro.psychcentral.com/recovery-expert/2016/07/the-narcissists-flying-monkeys/ https://pro.psychcentral.com/recovery-expert/2016/07/the-nar... http://flyingmonkeysdenied.com/ http://flyingmonkeysdenied.com/
  - duncan_bayne 9y ago
    What makes you think that anything about my opinion of affirmative action has anything to do with ESR? Here's a clue: https://ari.aynrand.org/issues/culture-and-society/more/Racism https://ari.aynrand.org/issues/culture-and-society/more/Raci... Last I asked, ESR wasn't an Objectivist, and in fact we disagree on some fairly fundamental issues of epistemology. He's a fucking pagan, for starters! I don't know what your beef is with ESR, but the whole world doesn't revolve around him, man.

matt4077 9y ago

Affirmative action is to racism as compensation is to theft.

duncan_bayne 9y ago
If you take the money for compensation from random strangers based on the colour of their skin, I'd buy that analogy.