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> I understand, I would hate to be proven wrong as much as you have been in this exchange. What a revealing sentiment. It speaks to your desire not to engage p

> I understand, I would hate to be proven wrong as much as you have been in this exchange. What a revealing sentiment. It speaks to your desire not to engage people here, or share insight or build consensus, but rather a desire to score debate points. What's more, your entire argument is about addressing tangential (and debatable) inconsistencies and not actually addressing the larger point. If you think observers are blind to this, you're dead wrong. If you really want to argue that there isn't a wage gap, scoffing and sniping won't work. The overton window, as they say, has shifted. The burden's on you now to provide an alternate hypothesis and shift the consensus. Consider what this website is for. Folks with math, science or computer education are going to demand a higher standard than sniping around the edges of an argument attempting to discourage the debate.

syshum 9y ago
I am not arguing there is no wage gap, I am stating a proven fact there is no wage gap. Outside extreme left authoritarian circles, which this site seems to be extremely slanted towards, that is an accepted fact, so I do not buy the overton window has shifted at all. You likely believe that because you live in a echo chamber probably on either the East or West coast. As to providing an "alternate hypothesis", to what? The claim is that employers pay their female workers for the same work less than their male workers. This claim has been proven to be incorrect and instead only exist if you take all female wages added together across all roles, and compare that to all male wages across all job roles which only shows that women generally enter into less paying professions. Liberal Authoritarians then make the illogical leap that is because of sexism and the "patriarchy" with out any evidence to support that claim. That there is some grand conspiracy to suppress wages in any occupation that is dominated by female labor, and to keep women out of male occupations. I have yet to find any creditable evidence for these claims To narrow the focus more to what we seem to normally come to "Why are there not very many female programmers", that is not a symptom of employment sexism, that demographic is not going after those jobs. Now we can debate the reason for this, often tracing it to High School or other teenage development factors, not to employment sexism. I am not denying sexism in general or even sexism in the workforce, I am denying it is a factor of pay for the same job.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  > I am not arguing there is no wage gap, I am stating a proven fact there is no wage gap. Oh, you have a proof? Can I see the analysis and its methodology that prove this? What techniques were used? What data sets we're incorporated. How did this model interpret attrition? > Outside extreme left authoritarian circles, Sorry, but this doesn't work for leftists or arch conservatives on Hacker News. You make an assertion, you gotta back it up. No appealing to "these bad people" politics here. It's quite off-topic, and speaks the aforementioned lack of sincerity in your engagement with people here. > To narrow the focus more to what we seem to normally come to "Why are there not very many female programmers", that is not a symptom of employment sexism, that demographic is not going after those jobs. Now we can debate the reason for this, often tracing it to High School or other teenage development factors, not to employment sexism. So, this really isn't the wage gap your aiming talking to. This is that silly, unsourced, appeal-to-fringe-evolutionary-biology argument Damore posited. But as I've pointed out in another thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15509045 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15509045), your appeal to a home&hearth bias sabotaging pipines is not really supported in the data. NSF's data shows better enrollment in CS but more attrition, a phenomenon that is striking considering we don't see it in equally difficult and computer-engaged fields. Ultimately this is a common argument that says, "Women just prefer less valuable work. They love being cheap or unpaid labor." It's a very just-so argument that let's anyone paint a bullseye around any wage gap and say, "Women just prefer it this way who knows why but it sure is lucky for us!" It's striking in the CS world given the staccatto series of sexual harassment and discrimination claims and suits that 2016 and 2017 bring us. Women are saying, in public and in court, that it's not so. But curiously, listening to them brands you "authoritarian left" and "anti-male." You claim to be a Libertarian in your writing here. Are you sure though? Unfair systemic bias goes against the heart of the libertarian ideals. If you don't have a commitment to meritocracy, what do you stand for? It seems to me like you're deliberately avoiding the wealth of data showing a 3-7% in-band pay gap between women and men in our industry. Why?
  - syshum 9y ago
    >>You make an assertion, you gotta back it up. No appealing to "these bad people" politics here. It's quite off-topic, and speaks the aforementioned lack of sincerity in your engagement with people here. You claim there is a wage gap, and have no "backed it up" so show me your research because I guarantee any study you post I can show you how your are misinterpreting the data. Every study shows an earning gap due to different job, not a pay gap for the same work The reason for women are on lower paying job roles can be debated but it is outside the topic of a pay gap. What this conversation is about is an employer paying a female lower wages for the exact same job simply because she is female. >So, this really isn't the wage gap your aiming talking to. This is that silly, unsourced, appeal-to-fringe-evolutionary-biology argument Damore posited. I don't believe that I what I said at all, My info comes from the national organization of women, and Girls who Code both of which have studies/data that shows in junior high there is a High interest in Computer Science from girls, then in high School that Interest Craters, Why... They cite a few reason but again that is outside the topic of conversation which is different pay for the same work You seem to making a lot of assumptions about my position. I wonder if that character flaw is why you have such a strong position here, you have seen some data then made the assumption is ti because of sexism, and once you have made that assumption nothing will change your mind. You know deep in your bones that sexism is the one and only reason, no amount of data will change your mind on that. > It's striking in the CS world given the staccatto series of sexual harassment and discrimination claims and suits that 2016 and 2017 bring us. Women are saying, in public and in court, that it's not so. But curiously, listening to them brands you "authoritarian left" and "anti-male." Again you have conflated 2 things. I clearly stated that I was not denying sexism, and supervisors or others that use their power to abuse others (male or female) should be fired, and possibly criminal charged. However that again is outside the topic of if a company is paying a female worker less money for equal labor than a male worker in the exact same job who has the exact same experience. This is the discussion we are having. You seem to want to expand this discussion to more than just a gender pay gap

syshum 9y ago

I am not arguing there is no wage gap, I am stating a proven fact there is no wage gap. Outside extreme left authoritarian circles, which this site seems to be extremely slanted towards, that is an accepted fact, so I do not buy the overton window has shifted at all. You likely believe that because you live in a echo chamber probably on either the East or West coast. As to providing an "alternate hypothesis", to what? The claim is that employers pay their female workers for the same work less than their male workers. This claim has been proven to be incorrect and instead only exist if you take all female wages added together across all roles, and compare that to all male wages across all job roles which only shows that women generally enter into less paying professions. Liberal Authoritarians then make the illogical leap that is because of sexism and the "patriarchy" with out any evidence to support that claim. That there is some grand conspiracy to suppress wages in any occupation that is dominated by female labor, and to keep women out of male occupations. I have yet to find any creditable evidence for these claims To narrow the focus more to what we seem to normally come to "Why are there not very many female programmers", that is not a symptom of employment sexism, that demographic is not going after those jobs. Now we can debate the reason for this, often tracing it to High School or other teenage development factors, not to employment sexism. I am not denying sexism in general or even sexism in the workforce, I am denying it is a factor of pay for the same job.

KirinDave 9y ago
> I am not arguing there is no wage gap, I am stating a proven fact there is no wage gap. Oh, you have a proof? Can I see the analysis and its methodology that prove this? What techniques were used? What data sets we're incorporated. How did this model interpret attrition? > Outside extreme left authoritarian circles, Sorry, but this doesn't work for leftists or arch conservatives on Hacker News. You make an assertion, you gotta back it up. No appealing to "these bad people" politics here. It's quite off-topic, and speaks the aforementioned lack of sincerity in your engagement with people here. > To narrow the focus more to what we seem to normally come to "Why are there not very many female programmers", that is not a symptom of employment sexism, that demographic is not going after those jobs. Now we can debate the reason for this, often tracing it to High School or other teenage development factors, not to employment sexism. So, this really isn't the wage gap your aiming talking to. This is that silly, unsourced, appeal-to-fringe-evolutionary-biology argument Damore posited. But as I've pointed out in another thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15509045 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15509045), your appeal to a home&hearth bias sabotaging pipines is not really supported in the data. NSF's data shows better enrollment in CS but more attrition, a phenomenon that is striking considering we don't see it in equally difficult and computer-engaged fields. Ultimately this is a common argument that says, "Women just prefer less valuable work. They love being cheap or unpaid labor." It's a very just-so argument that let's anyone paint a bullseye around any wage gap and say, "Women just prefer it this way who knows why but it sure is lucky for us!" It's striking in the CS world given the staccatto series of sexual harassment and discrimination claims and suits that 2016 and 2017 bring us. Women are saying, in public and in court, that it's not so. But curiously, listening to them brands you "authoritarian left" and "anti-male." You claim to be a Libertarian in your writing here. Are you sure though? Unfair systemic bias goes against the heart of the libertarian ideals. If you don't have a commitment to meritocracy, what do you stand for? It seems to me like you're deliberately avoiding the wealth of data showing a 3-7% in-band pay gap between women and men in our industry. Why?
- syshum 9y ago
  >>You make an assertion, you gotta back it up. No appealing to "these bad people" politics here. It's quite off-topic, and speaks the aforementioned lack of sincerity in your engagement with people here. You claim there is a wage gap, and have no "backed it up" so show me your research because I guarantee any study you post I can show you how your are misinterpreting the data. Every study shows an earning gap due to different job, not a pay gap for the same work The reason for women are on lower paying job roles can be debated but it is outside the topic of a pay gap. What this conversation is about is an employer paying a female lower wages for the exact same job simply because she is female. >So, this really isn't the wage gap your aiming talking to. This is that silly, unsourced, appeal-to-fringe-evolutionary-biology argument Damore posited. I don't believe that I what I said at all, My info comes from the national organization of women, and Girls who Code both of which have studies/data that shows in junior high there is a High interest in Computer Science from girls, then in high School that Interest Craters, Why... They cite a few reason but again that is outside the topic of conversation which is different pay for the same work You seem to making a lot of assumptions about my position. I wonder if that character flaw is why you have such a strong position here, you have seen some data then made the assumption is ti because of sexism, and once you have made that assumption nothing will change your mind. You know deep in your bones that sexism is the one and only reason, no amount of data will change your mind on that. > It's striking in the CS world given the staccatto series of sexual harassment and discrimination claims and suits that 2016 and 2017 bring us. Women are saying, in public and in court, that it's not so. But curiously, listening to them brands you "authoritarian left" and "anti-male." Again you have conflated 2 things. I clearly stated that I was not denying sexism, and supervisors or others that use their power to abuse others (male or female) should be fired, and possibly criminal charged. However that again is outside the topic of if a company is paying a female worker less money for equal labor than a male worker in the exact same job who has the exact same experience. This is the discussion we are having. You seem to want to expand this discussion to more than just a gender pay gap