7 ms·

Back in the days, I always preferred the Trackpoints the IBM ThinkPads used and I never quite liked the trackpads. I'm even going as far as to say that I'm quit

by pilif 16y ago

Back in the days, I always preferred the Trackpoints the IBM ThinkPads used and I never quite liked the trackpads. I'm even going as far as to say that I'm quite the trackpad hater - they never felt precise to me and required way too frantic finger movement to be really comfortable for me. But when I moved to Apple hardware, I basically was stuck with the trackpads, but this time around, it was different. The bigger size meant less finger movement and with the advent of multi touch, it suddenly felt like a more "natural" way to control the machine. With the newer Macbook pros came this "the trackpad is the button" functionality and while it took me a day or so of getting used to, I absolutely cannot work with the dedicated button pads any more. Seing how quickly this became muscle memory, I assume that they did something (no idea what) right when they moved to that design. This is how I went from "I hate trackpads" to "trackpads are the only really natural way to control the machine". With this in mind, this new Apple device really interests me and I can't wait to get my hands on one. At worst it'll be a companion to my trackball, at best, it'll replace it (still also having a mouse connected for the eventual UT match though)

tomjen3 16y ago
The problem with trackpads are that you have to move your hand - great for normal browsing I suppose, but it sucks when you are writing code or typing.
- lutorm 16y ago
  How is this different from any other pointing device? The only one I know where you didn't have to move your hand was the Touchstream LP (http://www.fingerworks.com/ST_product.html http://www.fingerworks.com/ST_product.html), but then typing was difficult at best.
  - schwap 16y ago
    The Trackpoint (little nub) mouse on some laptops doesn't require you to move far if at all from the home row.
    - astrodust 16y ago
      The thing that always infuriated me about these little nubs was not only do they tend to have very strange acceleration profiles, but they would quickly wear down from a smooth bump into something all jagged and rough, pock-marked like the surface of a meteorite. Track-pads just get buffed more shiny, from what I've seen.
      - presto8 16y ago
        My ThinkPad came with three styles to choose from. The original style, which I think you're referring to, did wear down after about a year. But it's easy and cheap to get replacements (and some backups are often included). The style I like, which is wide and flat like a mushroom top with bumps, doesn't seem to wear down at all. As for the acceleration, like with any human input device, that's something you get used to, and it can be configured a bit as well. I love my TrackPad. I won't buy a laptop without one. Unfortunately, these days, there are fewer and fewer available...
  - bugsy 16y ago
    IBM Trackpoint http://www.pc.ibm.com/ww/healthycomputing/trkpnt.html http://www.pc.ibm.com/ww/healthycomputing/trkpnt.html Best pointing device ever. You can keep your hand in home position for typing and manipulate the cursor. It doesn't actually move, but is force sensitive and is delicately calibrated to move in an intuitive manner.
    - stan_rogers 16y ago
      With a Trackpoint-equipped keyboard and a Cintiq (or a tablet like the Intuos if you're using a laptop) you can rule the world. (Well, unless you're a gamer.) The only thing a Trackpoint can't do well is draw, and frankly touchpads, mice and trackballs fall short there as well. EDIT -- I'm not certain you can find a keyboard with a Trackpoint that isn't part of a Thinkpad anymore. There used to be a couple of licensed versions in addition to the IBM-branded ones.
      - jamesbritt 16y ago
        Some Dell laptops offer trackpoint keyboards (a big draw for me). Unicomp sells heavy, clacky-key, IBM Model-M style keyboards with the trackpoint built in http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104wh.html http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104wh.html Sort of pricey, but really nice whwn you want to hack with your feet up and the keyboard in your lap, and not have to reach for a mouse.
  - mrshoe 16y ago
    http://xkcd.com/243/ http://xkcd.com/243/
- pilif 16y ago
  while in coding mode I hardly ever use the pointing device anyways, but control my environment using the keyboard alone. But while browsing or looking up documentation, I need the pointing device and then the accuracy and the gestures of the trackpad come in very handily.
  - mbenjaminsmith 16y ago
    I agree (using Vim or Vim bindings for all coding work), but have you used the standard wireless mouse that comes with the newer iMacs? It has some gesture support on its top surface (like momentum scrolling) that I couldn't live without. I'm just wondering if you think the trackpad is better than their mouse. I've only played around with it at the store. Worth the upgrade do you think?
    - Hovertruck 16y ago
      I have a Magic Mouse for my work computer and use a MBP for personal stuff. Personally I actually preferred the Might Mouse over the Magic Mouse. While the multitouch is cool and I do use it a lot, it oftentimes takes a few tries for it to recognize the two finger swipe. I find the trackpad to be the best interaction device I've ever used. Your mileage may vary however. :)
- gojomo 16y ago
  You don't have to move your hand... if you've put the trackpad under your toes!
yobb 16y ago
I echo your sentiments completely. Side note, I bought some kind of multi-touch mini Wacom tablet for my Windows desktop to try to emulate the Mac trackpad experience, but it is complete garbage compared to the precision of the trackpad on my Macbook. It just doesn't feel the same.
pixelbath 16y ago
So, Apple trackpads are better in that they are more precise? Not being a Mac user, it's hard for me to understand what advantage a trackpad like this gives over any other third-party trackpad, other than the multitouch capability. Please help me understand why people are gushing over a $70 trackpad (even made by Apple), when most people mock similar input devices costing over $30.
- wtallis 16y ago
  I've got a $100 Wacom tablet that doubles as a multitouch trackpad. Even though it is far larger than any of Apple's trackpads, it is still much less useful as a trackpad because the lower accuracy makes the multitouch gestures too unreliable to become natural. On my MacBook Pro, I use jitouch to expand the repertoire of gestures to more than a dozen that I use regularly. On the Wacom Bamboo, I seldom bother with anything other than two-finger scrolling, and I doubt that it has the accuracy to support the range of gestures that jitouch has. (Although much of this could be due to the drivers.)
- jsz0 16y ago
  For me the big advantage of Apple's trackpads is their size. More surface area equals less finger repositioning and more reasonable tracking/acceleration speeds. I bought a Waccom Bamboo, wired not wireless, for $99 so I don't think Apple's $70 price tag is unreasonable.
- gamble 16y ago
  Two reasons. First, external multitouch trackpads have been basically unobtainable until now. Apple bought the one company that used to make them and incorporated their technology into Apple products years ago. The only other model I've seen was an obscure Japanese import that only supported Windows. If you like trackpads, the Magic Trackpad is the first time in years you can buy one for your desktop. Second, Apple makes the best trackpads in the industry by a huge margin. They're smooth and precise to a degree that PC laptop trackpads seem incapable of matching. The experience is comparable to the touchscreen on an iPhone or iPad. If you're not a Mac user it can be hard to appreciate the difference; I'm always shocked at how awful PC trackpads are every time I use non-Apple hardware. I'm used to hearing people complain about how much they hate trackpads, but if everyone had an Apple trackpad I suspect opinions would be quite different.
ezy 16y ago
I fail to see the advantage (swipe, swipe, swipe, press) has over (move, press). Not to mention that trackpads are fairly sensitive to sweaty fingers. Do people really rely on multitouch gestures that much? Frankly, I don't get it. Trackpads are vastly inferior to mice. I bring a mouse with my macbook whenever I can.
- scott_s 16y ago
  Using two fingers to scroll has become so natural to me that if I use a non-Apple trackpad I'm momentarily bewildered why it doesn't work.
  - lanstein 16y ago
    I was mindlessly scrolling with two fingers as I was reading your post :)
  - catch23 16y ago
    I also love the 3 finger navigation in web browser. I remember in the old days I would right click the page and select the "back" option so that I didn't actually have to do much movement.
    - bbgm 16y ago
      Likewise. Also heavily use the four finger swipes (for Expose, and switching between apps). At work I have a keyboard and mouse, but when I want to rotate something, I end up using the trackpad. Can't wait to get this one.
- guns 16y ago
  > I fail to see the advantage (swipe, swipe, swipe, press) has over (move, press) Turn up your trackpad's sensitivity. Also, if you have a keyboard driven workflow, a trackpad means shorter travel from the keyboard to the mouse.
  - sliverstorm 16y ago
sliverstorm 16y ago
It's ironic you say the Apple trackpads allow you to move your fingers less. My biggest complaint about Apple laptops has always been the excessive mouse movement required, at least vs. the trackpoints I love.
- protomyth 16y ago
  I had a bit of that problem, going into system preferences and getting the setting to your liking helped me a lot. I find I had to do the same thing with the trackball I use and the scroll wheel.
- catch23 16y ago
  The trackpad is super sensitive & precise. I have my speed cranked all the way up so I only have to move 1cm to move across half the screen.
- ugh 16y ago
  Mice can’t be made very fast on OS X but trackpads can (I don’t even have the speed all the way cranked up). I don’t know what it is with Apple and mice but their trackpads are pretty great.
  - sliverstorm 16y ago
    My personal suspicion has always gone like this: More advanced users have more key presses, larger, faster and more precise cursor movements, and are in general much more in control of the machine, moving quickly. I notice that I look where I want the cursor to go. Less advanced users tend to move ploddingly slowly, and become very disoriented when the mouse moves quickly. I notice that my less technically apt friends look where the mouse is, and follow it to it's destination. (Very similar to the observed division in number of inputs between beginning and expert Starcraft players) Which crowd does Apple target again?
    - ugh 16y ago
      Oh, I have seen so many less advanced computer users which struggle tremendously using a sensitive mouse. That certainly should be the reason why OS X defaults to very slow mouse speeds. That doesn’t really explain why mice on OS X are still so damn slow even if you crank them all the way up. Less advanced users don’t change settings, advanced users do, so it would be possible to make both happy.
aaronbrethorst 16y ago
I'll second that. I actually find using a desktop computer with a separated mouse and keyboard to be uncomfortable as compared to the MBP with the big, multitouch trackpad.

by pilif 16y ago

tomjen3 16y ago

The problem with trackpads are that you have to move your hand - great for normal browsing I suppose, but it sucks when you are writing code or typing.

lutorm 16y ago
How is this different from any other pointing device? The only one I know where you didn't have to move your hand was the Touchstream LP (http://www.fingerworks.com/ST_product.html http://www.fingerworks.com/ST_product.html), but then typing was difficult at best.
- schwap 16y ago
  The Trackpoint (little nub) mouse on some laptops doesn't require you to move far if at all from the home row.
  - astrodust 16y ago
    The thing that always infuriated me about these little nubs was not only do they tend to have very strange acceleration profiles, but they would quickly wear down from a smooth bump into something all jagged and rough, pock-marked like the surface of a meteorite. Track-pads just get buffed more shiny, from what I've seen.
    - presto8 16y ago
      My ThinkPad came with three styles to choose from. The original style, which I think you're referring to, did wear down after about a year. But it's easy and cheap to get replacements (and some backups are often included). The style I like, which is wide and flat like a mushroom top with bumps, doesn't seem to wear down at all. As for the acceleration, like with any human input device, that's something you get used to, and it can be configured a bit as well. I love my TrackPad. I won't buy a laptop without one. Unfortunately, these days, there are fewer and fewer available...
- bugsy 16y ago
  IBM Trackpoint http://www.pc.ibm.com/ww/healthycomputing/trkpnt.html http://www.pc.ibm.com/ww/healthycomputing/trkpnt.html Best pointing device ever. You can keep your hand in home position for typing and manipulate the cursor. It doesn't actually move, but is force sensitive and is delicately calibrated to move in an intuitive manner.
  - stan_rogers 16y ago
    With a Trackpoint-equipped keyboard and a Cintiq (or a tablet like the Intuos if you're using a laptop) you can rule the world. (Well, unless you're a gamer.) The only thing a Trackpoint can't do well is draw, and frankly touchpads, mice and trackballs fall short there as well. EDIT -- I'm not certain you can find a keyboard with a Trackpoint that isn't part of a Thinkpad anymore. There used to be a couple of licensed versions in addition to the IBM-branded ones.
    - jamesbritt 16y ago
      Some Dell laptops offer trackpoint keyboards (a big draw for me). Unicomp sells heavy, clacky-key, IBM Model-M style keyboards with the trackpoint built in http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104wh.html http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104wh.html Sort of pricey, but really nice whwn you want to hack with your feet up and the keyboard in your lap, and not have to reach for a mouse.
- mrshoe 16y ago
  http://xkcd.com/243/ http://xkcd.com/243/
pilif 16y ago
while in coding mode I hardly ever use the pointing device anyways, but control my environment using the keyboard alone. But while browsing or looking up documentation, I need the pointing device and then the accuracy and the gestures of the trackpad come in very handily.
- mbenjaminsmith 16y ago
  I agree (using Vim or Vim bindings for all coding work), but have you used the standard wireless mouse that comes with the newer iMacs? It has some gesture support on its top surface (like momentum scrolling) that I couldn't live without. I'm just wondering if you think the trackpad is better than their mouse. I've only played around with it at the store. Worth the upgrade do you think?
  - Hovertruck 16y ago
    I have a Magic Mouse for my work computer and use a MBP for personal stuff. Personally I actually preferred the Might Mouse over the Magic Mouse. While the multitouch is cool and I do use it a lot, it oftentimes takes a few tries for it to recognize the two finger swipe. I find the trackpad to be the best interaction device I've ever used. Your mileage may vary however. :)
gojomo 16y ago
You don't have to move your hand... if you've put the trackpad under your toes!

yobb 16y ago

I echo your sentiments completely. Side note, I bought some kind of multi-touch mini Wacom tablet for my Windows desktop to try to emulate the Mac trackpad experience, but it is complete garbage compared to the precision of the trackpad on my Macbook. It just doesn't feel the same.

pixelbath 16y ago

So, Apple trackpads are better in that they are more precise? Not being a Mac user, it's hard for me to understand what advantage a trackpad like this gives over any other third-party trackpad, other than the multitouch capability. Please help me understand why people are gushing over a $70 trackpad (even made by Apple), when most people mock similar input devices costing over $30.

wtallis 16y ago
I've got a $100 Wacom tablet that doubles as a multitouch trackpad. Even though it is far larger than any of Apple's trackpads, it is still much less useful as a trackpad because the lower accuracy makes the multitouch gestures too unreliable to become natural. On my MacBook Pro, I use jitouch to expand the repertoire of gestures to more than a dozen that I use regularly. On the Wacom Bamboo, I seldom bother with anything other than two-finger scrolling, and I doubt that it has the accuracy to support the range of gestures that jitouch has. (Although much of this could be due to the drivers.)
jsz0 16y ago
For me the big advantage of Apple's trackpads is their size. More surface area equals less finger repositioning and more reasonable tracking/acceleration speeds. I bought a Waccom Bamboo, wired not wireless, for $99 so I don't think Apple's $70 price tag is unreasonable.
gamble 16y ago
Two reasons. First, external multitouch trackpads have been basically unobtainable until now. Apple bought the one company that used to make them and incorporated their technology into Apple products years ago. The only other model I've seen was an obscure Japanese import that only supported Windows. If you like trackpads, the Magic Trackpad is the first time in years you can buy one for your desktop. Second, Apple makes the best trackpads in the industry by a huge margin. They're smooth and precise to a degree that PC laptop trackpads seem incapable of matching. The experience is comparable to the touchscreen on an iPhone or iPad. If you're not a Mac user it can be hard to appreciate the difference; I'm always shocked at how awful PC trackpads are every time I use non-Apple hardware. I'm used to hearing people complain about how much they hate trackpads, but if everyone had an Apple trackpad I suspect opinions would be quite different.

ezy 16y ago

I fail to see the advantage (swipe, swipe, swipe, press) has over (move, press). Not to mention that trackpads are fairly sensitive to sweaty fingers. Do people really rely on multitouch gestures that much? Frankly, I don't get it. Trackpads are vastly inferior to mice. I bring a mouse with my macbook whenever I can.

scott_s 16y ago
Using two fingers to scroll has become so natural to me that if I use a non-Apple trackpad I'm momentarily bewildered why it doesn't work.
- lanstein 16y ago
  I was mindlessly scrolling with two fingers as I was reading your post :)
- catch23 16y ago
  I also love the 3 finger navigation in web browser. I remember in the old days I would right click the page and select the "back" option so that I didn't actually have to do much movement.
  - bbgm 16y ago
    Likewise. Also heavily use the four finger swipes (for Expose, and switching between apps). At work I have a keyboard and mouse, but when I want to rotate something, I end up using the trackpad. Can't wait to get this one.
guns 16y ago
> I fail to see the advantage (swipe, swipe, swipe, press) has over (move, press) Turn up your trackpad's sensitivity. Also, if you have a keyboard driven workflow, a trackpad means shorter travel from the keyboard to the mouse.
- sliverstorm 16y ago

sliverstorm 16y ago

It's ironic you say the Apple trackpads allow you to move your fingers less. My biggest complaint about Apple laptops has always been the excessive mouse movement required, at least vs. the trackpoints I love.

protomyth 16y ago
I had a bit of that problem, going into system preferences and getting the setting to your liking helped me a lot. I find I had to do the same thing with the trackball I use and the scroll wheel.
catch23 16y ago
The trackpad is super sensitive & precise. I have my speed cranked all the way up so I only have to move 1cm to move across half the screen.
ugh 16y ago
Mice can’t be made very fast on OS X but trackpads can (I don’t even have the speed all the way cranked up). I don’t know what it is with Apple and mice but their trackpads are pretty great.
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  My personal suspicion has always gone like this: More advanced users have more key presses, larger, faster and more precise cursor movements, and are in general much more in control of the machine, moving quickly. I notice that I look where I want the cursor to go. Less advanced users tend to move ploddingly slowly, and become very disoriented when the mouse moves quickly. I notice that my less technically apt friends look where the mouse is, and follow it to it's destination. (Very similar to the observed division in number of inputs between beginning and expert Starcraft players) Which crowd does Apple target again?
  - ugh 16y ago
    Oh, I have seen so many less advanced computer users which struggle tremendously using a sensitive mouse. That certainly should be the reason why OS X defaults to very slow mouse speeds. That doesn’t really explain why mice on OS X are still so damn slow even if you crank them all the way up. Less advanced users don’t change settings, advanced users do, so it would be possible to make both happy.

aaronbrethorst 16y ago

I'll second that. I actually find using a desktop computer with a separated mouse and keyboard to be uncomfortable as compared to the MBP with the big, multitouch trackpad.