7 ms·

The fantasyland that ESR lives in is such a wildly inaccurate representation of reality that it borders on offensive.

DonHopkins 9y ago
Thank you. Links to catb have no place in a rational discussion. Gun nuts, racists and men's rights activist should troll somewhere else.
- duncan_bayne 9y ago
  > racists and men's rights activist should troll somewhere else. There are definitely many of those in the comment threads on Eric's blog. But are you saying that ESR is himself one of those? Because I've seen no evidence of it myself. [Edited to remove the 'gun nuts' bit, because ESR proudly self-identifies as same; it was the racist / MRA thing I was questioning.]
  - DonHopkins 9y ago
    There are many racists and men's rights activists at Trump rallies, but (gasp!) are you saying that Trump is himself one of those? Maybe he's actually an upright ethical human being with extraordinary leadership abilities, who simply panders to racists and men's rights activists, but doesn't actually believe any of the words he says to wind up the crowds at rallies? The best evidence is all over his blog and Google+ account, but I refuse to link to it. Google for "esr", "Is the casting couch a fair trade?", "low IQ" and "Blacks are lazy" yourself. You're probably going to want to take a shower afterwards. ...Unless that kind of stuff appeals to you.
    - duncan_bayne 9y ago
      I've read a fair number of ESRs posts about race, and don't think any of them constitute racism on his part. I _do_ disagree with his 'casting couch' position, though, and will post there to that effect.
      - tptacek 9y ago
        "The average IQ of the Haitian population is 67... Haiti is, quite literally, a country full of violent idiots." Or, from a different post: "... The minimum level of training required to make someone effective as a self defense shooter is not very high... unfortunately, this doesn't cover the BLM crowd, which would have an average IQ of 85 if it's statistically representative of American blacks as a whole. I've never tried to train anyone that dim and wouldn't want to." Here, or we can just do this in bulk: https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/780839196231630848 https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/780839196231630848 Fun fact: these quotes come from just one ESR comment thread.
      - DonHopkins 9y ago
        Seriously: Don't go there. Don't post to that effect. It will make no difference, and he will thrive from your attention. Don't read there. Don't link there. Don't quote his words. Don't be his flying monkey. The world will be a better place for it. Thank you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disengaging_from_an_abuser_using_the_no_contact_rule_or_grey_rock_method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disengaging_from_an_abuser_usi... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_monkeys_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_monkeys_(psychology)
        duncan_bayne 9y ago
        You're acting as though ESR is some sort of abusing monster. I'm subscribed to his blog, I've chatted with him on email ... perhaps I'm missing something here? I mean, it's possible I was mistaken, and he is in fact racist. Certainly the casting couch post is wrong, and I plan to call him on that. But I don't get your position here at all.
        DonHopkins 9y ago
        How long have you been reading his blog? Do you agree with ESR that blacks are lazy, the people in the open source community who wanted Russ Nelson to step down from being president of OSI for saying "blacks are lazy" were fools and thugs, and that blacks have lower IQ and are more violent than other races ("violent idiots" in his own words)? Because I'm wondering why you're not planning on calling him on all of that stuff, too... But I'm telling you in advance: nothing you say is going to change his opinion or behavior one bit. But be careful that he doesn't change yours.
  - matt4077 9y ago
    There's an essay by him defending Timothy McVeigh, and another one where he makes that rotten old "affirmative action is racism!!!1!" argument. Plus, I seem to remember, gives pretty much the impression that all black people are gang members on welfare to him. Then, there's the really-not-as-smart-as-he-thinks biologism trying to explain "why women are different than men". It's actually funny how there's this never-ending supply of people posting those arguments, promoting them as some sort of intellectual revolution, completely unchanged from ESR's heyday (early 80s?) to today's google-memo-writers.
    - duncan_bayne 9y ago
      Affirmative action _is_ racism, by definition, assuming you mean by that: basing your decision to hire in part on race. Re. McVeigh, do you mean http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/reflections-on-mcveigh.html http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/reflections-on-mcveigh.html? Because that doesn't seem like a defense of McVeigh to me. From the article: > This seems to me like a way to avoid facing the really hard questions. Questions which begin with this one: where and when and how did Timothy McVeigh learn to think of taking the lives of innocent women and children as acceptable "collateral damage"?
      - DonHopkins 9y ago
        If you think that the definition of racism is "basing your decision to hire in part on race", then you don't understand what racism is. http://www.agjohnson.us/glad/is-affirmative-action-racist/ http://www.agjohnson.us/glad/is-affirmative-action-racist/ "But the most important reason to reject the argument that affirmative action is racist is that it ignores what racism actually is. The whole point of any racist practice is to preserve and enforce the privilege – the dominance and unearned advantage – of the dominant group by systematically excluding and oppressing members of the subordinate group. This has never been the purpose of affirmative action, either in theory or in practice. It has been just the opposite – a modest attempt to shift the odds away from being so heavily loaded in favor of whites in an environment that is still overwhelmingly white dominated, identified, and centered."
  - tptacek 9y ago
    Eric Raymond doesn't believe he's a racist. Eric Raymond also doesn't believe that there are more than about 30 active white supremacists in the country†. One wonders what one would have to do to reach the level of "racist towards black people". Here's something I'm confident doesn't reach that level for Raymond: the belief that the average African American has an IQ so low --- borderline mentally disabled --- that they can't be properly instructed in the handling of a firearm. † (he knows this because his Kung Fu instructor, who consults with "the Feds" on "counter-terrorism", informed him of this --- this is presumably a different source than the one that reliably informed him that Iran had dispatched a death squad to kill him)
    - duncan_bayne 9y ago
      Citation needed, please. If you're right about that position - about firearms instruction - I'll gladly apologise, and withdraw my support for ESR as a non-racist.
      - tptacek 9y ago
        Will a screenshot suffice? I don't know whether he scrubbed his blog or just managed to get it deindexed (it's apparently been hacked at least twice in the past few weeks and he's not sure how, only that it's getting re-hacked after he installs new strong passwords) and there's a limit to how much work I'll put into securing an apology, but if you'll take my word for the authenticity of a screenshot I captured and posted myself --- and you should --- then here you go: https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/816449724127608833 https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/816449724127608833 Also, and with the maximum sincerity it is possible to imbue an HN comment with, from the bottom of my heart? Fuck that guy.
        DonHopkins 9y ago
        I never saw that before, but it's consistent with his past words and behavior. Since duncan asked for citations: Here's ESR having a tantrum and throwing down the gauntlet during Russ Nelson's "Blacks are lazy" scandal that embarassed OSI and rocked the open source community: he insisted OSI get into a mud-fight against political correctness, and he called people in the open source community who disagreed with Russ's "Blacks are lazy" blog posting "fools and thugs": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Russ_Nelson#Blacks_are_lazy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Russ_Nelson#Blacks_are_la... Note that although Russell withdrew the article, and admitted it was badly written, Eric S. Raymond is on the record as having defended it by accusing people asking Russell to step down as being "fools and thugs". Note that "thug" has been called a "dog whistle" term for "n*gger". https://aattp.org/thug-just-a-dog-whistle-for-n-word-says-nfl-star-richard-sherman/ https://aattp.org/thug-just-a-dog-whistle-for-n-word-says-nf... http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Linux-and-Open-Source/New-OSI-President-Steps-Down/#sthash.EJtgGdxJ.dpuf http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Linux-and-Open-Source/New-OSI-Presi... Eric S. Raymond wrote: “The people who knew Russ as a Quaker, a pacifist and a gentleman, and no racist, but nevertheless pressured OSI to do the responsible thing and fire him in order to avoid political damage should be equally ashamed,” Raymond said. “Abetting somebody elses witch hunt is no less disgusting than starting your own.” “Personally, I wanted to fight this on principle,” Raymond said. “Russ resigned the presidency rather than get OSI into that fight, and the board quite properly respected his wishes in the matter. That sacrifice makes me angrier at the fools and thugs who pulled him down.” http://slashdot.org/~tomhudson/journal/98015 http://slashdot.org/~tomhudson/journal/98015
- duncan_bayne 9y ago
  > Thank you. Links to catb have no place in a rational discussion. Categorizing people who disagree with you as irrational is in itself a behaviour that has no place in rational discussion.
  - DonHopkins 9y ago
    Let's just say that in the 33 or so years that I have known "Eric the Flute" personally, he has always acted creepy and irrational, but he really went off the deep end after 9/11.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
tptacek 9y ago
It is far, far past the border of "offensive". If offensiveness was Canada, ESR's worldview would be somewhere up near Yellowknife.
jonstewart 9y ago
Also, he's not a good programmer.

Thank you. Links to catb have no place in a rational discussion. Gun nuts, racists and men's rights activist should troll somewhere else.

duncan_bayne 9y ago
> racists and men's rights activist should troll somewhere else. There are definitely many of those in the comment threads on Eric's blog. But are you saying that ESR is himself one of those? Because I've seen no evidence of it myself. [Edited to remove the 'gun nuts' bit, because ESR proudly self-identifies as same; it was the racist / MRA thing I was questioning.]
- DonHopkins 9y ago
  There are many racists and men's rights activists at Trump rallies, but (gasp!) are you saying that Trump is himself one of those? Maybe he's actually an upright ethical human being with extraordinary leadership abilities, who simply panders to racists and men's rights activists, but doesn't actually believe any of the words he says to wind up the crowds at rallies? The best evidence is all over his blog and Google+ account, but I refuse to link to it. Google for "esr", "Is the casting couch a fair trade?", "low IQ" and "Blacks are lazy" yourself. You're probably going to want to take a shower afterwards. ...Unless that kind of stuff appeals to you.
  - duncan_bayne 9y ago
    I've read a fair number of ESRs posts about race, and don't think any of them constitute racism on his part. I _do_ disagree with his 'casting couch' position, though, and will post there to that effect.
    - tptacek 9y ago
      "The average IQ of the Haitian population is 67... Haiti is, quite literally, a country full of violent idiots." Or, from a different post: "... The minimum level of training required to make someone effective as a self defense shooter is not very high... unfortunately, this doesn't cover the BLM crowd, which would have an average IQ of 85 if it's statistically representative of American blacks as a whole. I've never tried to train anyone that dim and wouldn't want to." Here, or we can just do this in bulk: https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/780839196231630848 https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/780839196231630848 Fun fact: these quotes come from just one ESR comment thread.
    - DonHopkins 9y ago
      Seriously: Don't go there. Don't post to that effect. It will make no difference, and he will thrive from your attention. Don't read there. Don't link there. Don't quote his words. Don't be his flying monkey. The world will be a better place for it. Thank you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disengaging_from_an_abuser_using_the_no_contact_rule_or_grey_rock_method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disengaging_from_an_abuser_usi... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_monkeys_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_monkeys_(psychology)
      - duncan_bayne 9y ago
        You're acting as though ESR is some sort of abusing monster. I'm subscribed to his blog, I've chatted with him on email ... perhaps I'm missing something here? I mean, it's possible I was mistaken, and he is in fact racist. Certainly the casting couch post is wrong, and I plan to call him on that. But I don't get your position here at all.
        DonHopkins 9y ago
        How long have you been reading his blog? Do you agree with ESR that blacks are lazy, the people in the open source community who wanted Russ Nelson to step down from being president of OSI for saying "blacks are lazy" were fools and thugs, and that blacks have lower IQ and are more violent than other races ("violent idiots" in his own words)? Because I'm wondering why you're not planning on calling him on all of that stuff, too... But I'm telling you in advance: nothing you say is going to change his opinion or behavior one bit. But be careful that he doesn't change yours.
- matt4077 9y ago
  There's an essay by him defending Timothy McVeigh, and another one where he makes that rotten old "affirmative action is racism!!!1!" argument. Plus, I seem to remember, gives pretty much the impression that all black people are gang members on welfare to him. Then, there's the really-not-as-smart-as-he-thinks biologism trying to explain "why women are different than men". It's actually funny how there's this never-ending supply of people posting those arguments, promoting them as some sort of intellectual revolution, completely unchanged from ESR's heyday (early 80s?) to today's google-memo-writers.
  - duncan_bayne 9y ago
    Affirmative action _is_ racism, by definition, assuming you mean by that: basing your decision to hire in part on race. Re. McVeigh, do you mean http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/reflections-on-mcveigh.html http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/reflections-on-mcveigh.html? Because that doesn't seem like a defense of McVeigh to me. From the article: > This seems to me like a way to avoid facing the really hard questions. Questions which begin with this one: where and when and how did Timothy McVeigh learn to think of taking the lives of innocent women and children as acceptable "collateral damage"?
    - DonHopkins 9y ago
      If you think that the definition of racism is "basing your decision to hire in part on race", then you don't understand what racism is. http://www.agjohnson.us/glad/is-affirmative-action-racist/ http://www.agjohnson.us/glad/is-affirmative-action-racist/ "But the most important reason to reject the argument that affirmative action is racist is that it ignores what racism actually is. The whole point of any racist practice is to preserve and enforce the privilege – the dominance and unearned advantage – of the dominant group by systematically excluding and oppressing members of the subordinate group. This has never been the purpose of affirmative action, either in theory or in practice. It has been just the opposite – a modest attempt to shift the odds away from being so heavily loaded in favor of whites in an environment that is still overwhelmingly white dominated, identified, and centered."
- tptacek 9y ago
  Eric Raymond doesn't believe he's a racist. Eric Raymond also doesn't believe that there are more than about 30 active white supremacists in the country†. One wonders what one would have to do to reach the level of "racist towards black people". Here's something I'm confident doesn't reach that level for Raymond: the belief that the average African American has an IQ so low --- borderline mentally disabled --- that they can't be properly instructed in the handling of a firearm. † (he knows this because his Kung Fu instructor, who consults with "the Feds" on "counter-terrorism", informed him of this --- this is presumably a different source than the one that reliably informed him that Iran had dispatched a death squad to kill him)
  - duncan_bayne 9y ago
    Citation needed, please. If you're right about that position - about firearms instruction - I'll gladly apologise, and withdraw my support for ESR as a non-racist.
    - tptacek 9y ago
      Will a screenshot suffice? I don't know whether he scrubbed his blog or just managed to get it deindexed (it's apparently been hacked at least twice in the past few weeks and he's not sure how, only that it's getting re-hacked after he installs new strong passwords) and there's a limit to how much work I'll put into securing an apology, but if you'll take my word for the authenticity of a screenshot I captured and posted myself --- and you should --- then here you go: https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/816449724127608833 https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/816449724127608833 Also, and with the maximum sincerity it is possible to imbue an HN comment with, from the bottom of my heart? Fuck that guy.
      - DonHopkins 9y ago
        I never saw that before, but it's consistent with his past words and behavior. Since duncan asked for citations: Here's ESR having a tantrum and throwing down the gauntlet during Russ Nelson's "Blacks are lazy" scandal that embarassed OSI and rocked the open source community: he insisted OSI get into a mud-fight against political correctness, and he called people in the open source community who disagreed with Russ's "Blacks are lazy" blog posting "fools and thugs": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Russ_Nelson#Blacks_are_lazy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Russ_Nelson#Blacks_are_la... Note that although Russell withdrew the article, and admitted it was badly written, Eric S. Raymond is on the record as having defended it by accusing people asking Russell to step down as being "fools and thugs". Note that "thug" has been called a "dog whistle" term for "n*gger". https://aattp.org/thug-just-a-dog-whistle-for-n-word-says-nfl-star-richard-sherman/ https://aattp.org/thug-just-a-dog-whistle-for-n-word-says-nf... http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Linux-and-Open-Source/New-OSI-President-Steps-Down/#sthash.EJtgGdxJ.dpuf http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Linux-and-Open-Source/New-OSI-Presi... Eric S. Raymond wrote: “The people who knew Russ as a Quaker, a pacifist and a gentleman, and no racist, but nevertheless pressured OSI to do the responsible thing and fire him in order to avoid political damage should be equally ashamed,” Raymond said. “Abetting somebody elses witch hunt is no less disgusting than starting your own.” “Personally, I wanted to fight this on principle,” Raymond said. “Russ resigned the presidency rather than get OSI into that fight, and the board quite properly respected his wishes in the matter. That sacrifice makes me angrier at the fools and thugs who pulled him down.” http://slashdot.org/~tomhudson/journal/98015 http://slashdot.org/~tomhudson/journal/98015
duncan_bayne 9y ago
> Thank you. Links to catb have no place in a rational discussion. Categorizing people who disagree with you as irrational is in itself a behaviour that has no place in rational discussion.
- DonHopkins 9y ago
  Let's just say that in the 33 or so years that I have known "Eric the Flute" personally, he has always acted creepy and irrational, but he really went off the deep end after 9/11.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

tptacek 9y ago

It is far, far past the border of "offensive". If offensiveness was Canada, ESR's worldview would be somewhere up near Yellowknife.

jonstewart 9y ago

Also, he's not a good programmer.