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Absolutely... Academically, I've only failed two things. Typing and Spanish. Today, I'm fluent in Spanish - though a bit slower than natives. Why? I spent a w

by KGIII 9y ago

Absolutely... Academically, I've only failed two things. Typing and Spanish. Today, I'm fluent in Spanish - though a bit slower than natives. Why? I spent a whole lot of time with my pidgin Spanish below the border. Eventually, I just learned. I did make an effort to learn a few things every day, but I ended up actually learning more than that and doing so without even realizing it. I can't write Spanish, but I can read it. I can write it well enough so that I could probably pass for a mentally handicapped third grader. But, I can speak the language. Other than some basic phrases, it's the only other spoken language I'm even remotely fluent. (I also sign, ASL specifically, which has been surprisingly handy.) So, if someone really wants to learn a language, go visit the country where it is spoken and don't hang out with tourists. Learn a few phrases (ordering beer and where is the bathroom are good starters) and you'll pick up the rest. As near as I can tell, people are very happy to help. I'm not sure if there is some psychological thing to it, but people seem really helpful when you're making a legitimate effort to learn their language. By fluent, I mean able to understand and convey what is needed and not sound too silly. I'm sure I'm not always using proper Spanish. "Mí nescito habla Español, no Englais por favor." That got me started along my journey of Spanish speaking. I'd say I was okay after two weeks. Okay enough to get get around. I was not bad after a month. I was actually able to have a full conversation, without much thought, after about three months. Also, I'm not sure... Here's a puzzle for you people into psych stuff. During my immersion, I would sometimes dream in Spanish. Except, in my dreams, I was fluent. As in, I would prattle on and converse in Spanish - fluently. Except, at the time, I wasn't actually fluent. What language was I really speaking in my dream?

irrational 9y ago
I've never dreamt, so I'm not sure how dreams work, but maybe you were speaking English but your dream interpreted it as Spanish?
- KGIII 9y ago
  I have no idea. It has puzzled me since then. In my dreams, I was having full conversations about a variety of topics. I probably spoke 1000 words at the time.
schacon 9y ago
That's interesting. I studied ASL for several years in college and got fairly competent at it (volunteered in an integrated elementary school, helped at some Deaf-Blind events, went clubbing with Deaf friends, etc) but have had very few occasions to use it in the last 15 years since graduating. In what situations do you find yourself using it?
- KGIII 9y ago
  A good example would be when I'm out and about and see a deaf person trying to converse with others. I'll indicate that I learned a little sign language and translate for them. Another would be when I am out and about and I notice someone who is deaf. I'm not the least bit bashful, so I'll wave and get their attention to let them know that I can sign. This leads to a conversation, pretty much every time. It's not like they have a wide variety of people to converse with. So, they are usually quite happy to do so. I also used to work with municipalities and there were a number of occasions where a contact person would actually be deaf. Municipalities are generally more open to hiring people who have hearing issues. So, it has actually sped things up as opposed to their usually method of writing down what they want to say and then reading your lips. I am pretty outgoing, so it comes in handy. I haven't actually had anybody show outright displeasure, they always seem happy to find someone that signs. The closest would be a grumpy old man who was curt. He lived in the same neighborhood but would continue and we finally became friends and drinking buddies.
jerf 9y ago
"As in, I would prattle on and converse in Spanish - fluently. Except, at the time, I wasn't actually fluent." My dreams frequently claim I am a master composer, and that this tune is wonderful, or that I've written a really clever joke, or that they've told me something important. None of the things I've ever dragged up to the waking world have ever even remotely panned out as the dream promised. (If I may anthropomorphize for convenience.) I've come to the conclusion that that is the dream, in some sense. You dream that you were fluent in Spanish, but not just that you abstractly believed in it but that you had the experience. But what language were you speaking? Nothing. Nothing comprehensible, and possibly literally nothing at all; simply the empty experience of fluency without any concrete referent. Which makes the Dunning-Kruger effect more comprehensible, if it is possible to experience the feeling of "competence" divorced from almost anything concrete. Dunning-Kruger IMHO happens when the competence is firing and the person in question has no counterbalancing reasons to suppress it. So one of the keys of true competence is to be sure to eschew that feeling, in favor of seeking out the ways in which you are not competent. That is another way of looking at "deliberative practice", where you are always practicing just a wee bit beyond your capability. If you don't do that, it's too easy to rest on your laurels and feel soooper confident and awesome that you've really licked this Twinkle Twinkle Little Star tune, so now you really know what you're doing.
- KGIII 9y ago
  That kind of makes sense, thanks! It has puzzled me for years. It was very convincing dream Spanish, like fluency in technical verbiage and speaking about higher order mathematics - all in Spanish when I still had a hard time asking for a room for the night.
  - alphydan 9y ago
    I had a similar experience while doing undergrad physics. I would dream up incredibly elegant solutions to hard calculus problems ... wake up, write them down and go back to bed. In the morning I would find stuff like dx/dx = c or some other trivial or incorrect equation.
jdeisenberg 9y ago
Not sure about dreams, but I have had (simple) conversations entirely in German with people when in Germany -- but when I remember the content, I "hear" it all in English. This irritates me incredibly.
bradknowles 9y ago
I lived in Belgium for almost eight years. I tried to learn French, many times over. But it is a language that goes in one ear and out the other for me. However, in those nearly eight years, my wife and I visited Italy at least three or four times, for a total of maybe three weeks. I swear to $DEITY that I learned and used more Italian in those three weeks than I did French for the entire time I lived in Belgium. For me, there are just some languages that are harder than others, and are unlikely to ever stick. But maybe that’s just me.
- otterpro 9y ago
  I believe it is also the way the languages are spoken and the phonetics. For me, French is very difficult to hear but Italian, Spanish, and even Japanese have very distinct pronunciation and phonetics, making it easy to understand.

by KGIII 9y ago

irrational 9y ago

I've never dreamt, so I'm not sure how dreams work, but maybe you were speaking English but your dream interpreted it as Spanish?

KGIII 9y ago
I have no idea. It has puzzled me since then. In my dreams, I was having full conversations about a variety of topics. I probably spoke 1000 words at the time.

schacon 9y ago

That's interesting. I studied ASL for several years in college and got fairly competent at it (volunteered in an integrated elementary school, helped at some Deaf-Blind events, went clubbing with Deaf friends, etc) but have had very few occasions to use it in the last 15 years since graduating. In what situations do you find yourself using it?

KGIII 9y ago
A good example would be when I'm out and about and see a deaf person trying to converse with others. I'll indicate that I learned a little sign language and translate for them. Another would be when I am out and about and I notice someone who is deaf. I'm not the least bit bashful, so I'll wave and get their attention to let them know that I can sign. This leads to a conversation, pretty much every time. It's not like they have a wide variety of people to converse with. So, they are usually quite happy to do so. I also used to work with municipalities and there were a number of occasions where a contact person would actually be deaf. Municipalities are generally more open to hiring people who have hearing issues. So, it has actually sped things up as opposed to their usually method of writing down what they want to say and then reading your lips. I am pretty outgoing, so it comes in handy. I haven't actually had anybody show outright displeasure, they always seem happy to find someone that signs. The closest would be a grumpy old man who was curt. He lived in the same neighborhood but would continue and we finally became friends and drinking buddies.

jerf 9y ago

"As in, I would prattle on and converse in Spanish - fluently. Except, at the time, I wasn't actually fluent." My dreams frequently claim I am a master composer, and that this tune is wonderful, or that I've written a really clever joke, or that they've told me something important. None of the things I've ever dragged up to the waking world have ever even remotely panned out as the dream promised. (If I may anthropomorphize for convenience.) I've come to the conclusion that that is the dream, in some sense. You dream that you were fluent in Spanish, but not just that you abstractly believed in it but that you had the experience. But what language were you speaking? Nothing. Nothing comprehensible, and possibly literally nothing at all; simply the empty experience of fluency without any concrete referent. Which makes the Dunning-Kruger effect more comprehensible, if it is possible to experience the feeling of "competence" divorced from almost anything concrete. Dunning-Kruger IMHO happens when the competence is firing and the person in question has no counterbalancing reasons to suppress it. So one of the keys of true competence is to be sure to eschew that feeling, in favor of seeking out the ways in which you are not competent. That is another way of looking at "deliberative practice", where you are always practicing just a wee bit beyond your capability. If you don't do that, it's too easy to rest on your laurels and feel soooper confident and awesome that you've really licked this Twinkle Twinkle Little Star tune, so now you really know what you're doing.

KGIII 9y ago
That kind of makes sense, thanks! It has puzzled me for years. It was very convincing dream Spanish, like fluency in technical verbiage and speaking about higher order mathematics - all in Spanish when I still had a hard time asking for a room for the night.
- alphydan 9y ago
  I had a similar experience while doing undergrad physics. I would dream up incredibly elegant solutions to hard calculus problems ... wake up, write them down and go back to bed. In the morning I would find stuff like dx/dx = c or some other trivial or incorrect equation.

jdeisenberg 9y ago

Not sure about dreams, but I have had (simple) conversations entirely in German with people when in Germany -- but when I remember the content, I "hear" it all in English. This irritates me incredibly.

bradknowles 9y ago

I lived in Belgium for almost eight years. I tried to learn French, many times over. But it is a language that goes in one ear and out the other for me. However, in those nearly eight years, my wife and I visited Italy at least three or four times, for a total of maybe three weeks. I swear to $DEITY that I learned and used more Italian in those three weeks than I did French for the entire time I lived in Belgium. For me, there are just some languages that are harder than others, and are unlikely to ever stick. But maybe that’s just me.

otterpro 9y ago
I believe it is also the way the languages are spoken and the phonetics. For me, French is very difficult to hear but Italian, Spanish, and even Japanese have very distinct pronunciation and phonetics, making it easy to understand.