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Not sure I get this part: I realized I was part of the problem that night — a woman’s safety in her career environment shouldn’t require credible threats of vi

Not sure I get this part: I realized I was part of the problem that night — a woman’s safety in her career environment shouldn’t require credible threats of violence. I could understand saying she wasn't part of the solution, but to me "part of the problem" makes a non-zero contribution to the problem. What she did was at worst neutral, no?

wiredfool 9y ago
What she's saying is that there's really no reasonable way that a threat of violence should be part of a professional interaction in the tech field. (or any, outside of boxing and perhaps hockey) It's similar to what I teach the kids: He started it doesn't make it right, you know it's not ok to hit your brother. What she did was what she felt like she needed to do at the time. What she's doing now is second guessing it, and trying to turn it to a generally more positive approach on all sides in the future.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  The threat of violence is an appropriate response in any situation to someone drunkenly groping you and refusing to back off.
  - rhizome 9y ago
    Which also shouldn't be a part of a career environment.
    - floatingatoll 9y ago
      Among others!
    - icebraining 9y ago
      I don't think anybody is disagreeing with that.
duncan_bayne 9y ago
> What she did was at worst neutral, no? At worst. I'd argue it was strongly positive. http://www.catb.org/esr/guns/gun-ethics.html http://www.catb.org/esr/guns/gun-ethics.html
- mixologic 9y ago
  The fantasyland that ESR lives in is such a wildly inaccurate representation of reality that it borders on offensive.
  - DonHopkins 9y ago
    Thank you. Links to catb have no place in a rational discussion. Gun nuts, racists and men's rights activist should troll somewhere else.
    - duncan_bayne 9y ago
      > racists and men's rights activist should troll somewhere else. There are definitely many of those in the comment threads on Eric's blog. But are you saying that ESR is himself one of those? Because I've seen no evidence of it myself. [Edited to remove the 'gun nuts' bit, because ESR proudly self-identifies as same; it was the racist / MRA thing I was questioning.]
      - DonHopkins 9y ago
        There are many racists and men's rights activists at Trump rallies, but (gasp!) are you saying that Trump is himself one of those? Maybe he's actually an upright ethical human being with extraordinary leadership abilities, who simply panders to racists and men's rights activists, but doesn't actually believe any of the words he says to wind up the crowds at rallies? The best evidence is all over his blog and Google+ account, but I refuse to link to it. Google for "esr", "Is the casting couch a fair trade?", "low IQ" and "Blacks are lazy" yourself. You're probably going to want to take a shower afterwards. ...Unless that kind of stuff appeals to you.
ksenzee 9y ago
I understood it to mean that she was setting a bad precedent, making things just a bit more dangerous for the next woman who comes along and doesn't have her self-defense ability.
Mz 9y ago
I understand where she is coming from, but I don't know that I can explain it effectively. Even trying to do so tends to get me accused of blaming the victim. To attempt to explain it: One of my criticisms of Cheryl Yeoh is that her BATNA wrt to sexual harassment was that she has a black belt. So, I think she did not feel compelled to try all that hard to make sure to avoid trouble and misunderstandings. She felt safe, even if the worst came to pass. I think that was a contributing factor to the incident in which Dave McClure sexually assaulted her. * That does not make Dave's behavior okay. It in no way excuses it. But if you take the position that women are simply victims who have no power at all to influence the social environment in which they participate, I think you do more harm than good. Most discussions of "rape culture" assume that only men can do something about it. It assumes that only men create "rape culture" and only men can work to stop it. This is an incredibly disempowering way to view women. I think it actively reinforces the problem in insidious ways. That said, I am totally okay with Quinn Norton successfully enforcing her boundaries with Scoble by stating clearly and unequivocally that if he touched her again, she would break his nose. He was drunk. She had just met him. He was in the midst of trying to rape another woman, then sexually assaulted Quinn at first introduction in spite of witnesses. This was not a situation where more polite, respectful measures were going to work. But I also understand her mixed feelings about expressly seeking permission from the organizers to break his nose, should push come to shove. (Edit: In case you did not know, I am female and very open about being a rape survivor.) * https://cherylyeoh.com/2017/07/03/shedding-light-on-the-black-box-of-inappropriateness/ https://cherylyeoh.com/2017/07/03/shedding-light-on-the-blac...
- glangdale 9y ago
  Having a black belt in some random martial art won't mean much if you are a small woman having a non-sport-type self defense situation with a much larger man.
  - Mz 9y ago
    I don't think whether or not that is true is relevant to the point of her own statements about her own mindset about the matter. My point speaks to mindset and how that influences choices leading up to the incident. I blogged about it. I can point you to that series of posts if you are interested. I don't intend to rehash it at length here.

wiredfool 9y ago

What she's saying is that there's really no reasonable way that a threat of violence should be part of a professional interaction in the tech field. (or any, outside of boxing and perhaps hockey) It's similar to what I teach the kids: He started it doesn't make it right, you know it's not ok to hit your brother. What she did was what she felt like she needed to do at the time. What she's doing now is second guessing it, and trying to turn it to a generally more positive approach on all sides in the future.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
aaron-lebo 9y ago
The threat of violence is an appropriate response in any situation to someone drunkenly groping you and refusing to back off.
- rhizome 9y ago
  Which also shouldn't be a part of a career environment.
  - floatingatoll 9y ago
    Among others!
  - icebraining 9y ago
    I don't think anybody is disagreeing with that.

duncan_bayne 9y ago

> What she did was at worst neutral, no? At worst. I'd argue it was strongly positive. http://www.catb.org/esr/guns/gun-ethics.html http://www.catb.org/esr/guns/gun-ethics.html

mixologic 9y ago
The fantasyland that ESR lives in is such a wildly inaccurate representation of reality that it borders on offensive.
- DonHopkins 9y ago
  Thank you. Links to catb have no place in a rational discussion. Gun nuts, racists and men's rights activist should troll somewhere else.
  - duncan_bayne 9y ago
    > racists and men's rights activist should troll somewhere else. There are definitely many of those in the comment threads on Eric's blog. But are you saying that ESR is himself one of those? Because I've seen no evidence of it myself. [Edited to remove the 'gun nuts' bit, because ESR proudly self-identifies as same; it was the racist / MRA thing I was questioning.]
    - DonHopkins 9y ago
      There are many racists and men's rights activists at Trump rallies, but (gasp!) are you saying that Trump is himself one of those? Maybe he's actually an upright ethical human being with extraordinary leadership abilities, who simply panders to racists and men's rights activists, but doesn't actually believe any of the words he says to wind up the crowds at rallies? The best evidence is all over his blog and Google+ account, but I refuse to link to it. Google for "esr", "Is the casting couch a fair trade?", "low IQ" and "Blacks are lazy" yourself. You're probably going to want to take a shower afterwards. ...Unless that kind of stuff appeals to you.

ksenzee 9y ago

I understood it to mean that she was setting a bad precedent, making things just a bit more dangerous for the next woman who comes along and doesn't have her self-defense ability.

Mz 9y ago

I understand where she is coming from, but I don't know that I can explain it effectively. Even trying to do so tends to get me accused of blaming the victim. To attempt to explain it: One of my criticisms of Cheryl Yeoh is that her BATNA wrt to sexual harassment was that she has a black belt. So, I think she did not feel compelled to try all that hard to make sure to avoid trouble and misunderstandings. She felt safe, even if the worst came to pass. I think that was a contributing factor to the incident in which Dave McClure sexually assaulted her. * That does not make Dave's behavior okay. It in no way excuses it. But if you take the position that women are simply victims who have no power at all to influence the social environment in which they participate, I think you do more harm than good. Most discussions of "rape culture" assume that only men can do something about it. It assumes that only men create "rape culture" and only men can work to stop it. This is an incredibly disempowering way to view women. I think it actively reinforces the problem in insidious ways. That said, I am totally okay with Quinn Norton successfully enforcing her boundaries with Scoble by stating clearly and unequivocally that if he touched her again, she would break his nose. He was drunk. She had just met him. He was in the midst of trying to rape another woman, then sexually assaulted Quinn at first introduction in spite of witnesses. This was not a situation where more polite, respectful measures were going to work. But I also understand her mixed feelings about expressly seeking permission from the organizers to break his nose, should push come to shove. (Edit: In case you did not know, I am female and very open about being a rape survivor.) * https://cherylyeoh.com/2017/07/03/shedding-light-on-the-black-box-of-inappropriateness/ https://cherylyeoh.com/2017/07/03/shedding-light-on-the-blac...

glangdale 9y ago
Having a black belt in some random martial art won't mean much if you are a small woman having a non-sport-type self defense situation with a much larger man.
- Mz 9y ago
  I don't think whether or not that is true is relevant to the point of her own statements about her own mindset about the matter. My point speaks to mindset and how that influences choices leading up to the incident. I blogged about it. I can point you to that series of posts if you are interested. I don't intend to rehash it at length here.