4 ms·

Interesting. If you were interacting for 16h a day "in country" for 7 weeks, then (16 * 7 * 7) + 150 + 85 = 1019 hours. If State Departments say 400 hours, then

by akeck 9y ago

Interesting. If you were interacting for 16h a day "in country" for 7 weeks, then (16 * 7 * 7) + 150 + 85 = 1019 hours. If State Departments say 400 hours, then this sheds light on why many non-native fluent speakers recommend immersion - there's simply no faster way to meet or exceed 400 hours of practice than daily immersion.

schacon 9y ago
Think about how much time you spend a day speaking even your own language in your daily life. Do you think it's 16 hours in a day? 400 hours of practice is a pretty good rule of thumb I think, but that's deliberate practice, not just physically being awake in a country that speaks the language. You need to be engaging in conversation and actively processing things for those 400 hours. Plus it has to be at a practical level. Watching TV in Japanese when you don't know any Japanese doesn't make you much better at the language - your brain isn't really processing anything. Or to make a music metaphor, you can't really just play with a violin for hundreds of hours and be good. You need a tutor, someone to challenge you at your level and help you make small steps so you slowly get better. Anders Ericsson has done some fascinating research on excellence and the important difference between doing something and deliberate practice at it. Also, don't mistake being in a country with language immersion. When I was in Paris and knew some French, I would maybe be able to do a few hours a day at best, if I was really trying to engage. Even in English in America, I probably only really talk or engage in conversation for a few hours a day on average. I was in Germany last year for a few weeks when I was around an A1 level and I barely progressed, because the immersion is very surface-level at that stage. You have encounters but it's not really practice - most interactions are too high-level and don't help you because you can't process them.
KGIII 9y ago
Absolutely... Academically, I've only failed two things. Typing and Spanish. Today, I'm fluent in Spanish - though a bit slower than natives. Why? I spent a whole lot of time with my pidgin Spanish below the border. Eventually, I just learned. I did make an effort to learn a few things every day, but I ended up actually learning more than that and doing so without even realizing it. I can't write Spanish, but I can read it. I can write it well enough so that I could probably pass for a mentally handicapped third grader. But, I can speak the language. Other than some basic phrases, it's the only other spoken language I'm even remotely fluent. (I also sign, ASL specifically, which has been surprisingly handy.) So, if someone really wants to learn a language, go visit the country where it is spoken and don't hang out with tourists. Learn a few phrases (ordering beer and where is the bathroom are good starters) and you'll pick up the rest. As near as I can tell, people are very happy to help. I'm not sure if there is some psychological thing to it, but people seem really helpful when you're making a legitimate effort to learn their language. By fluent, I mean able to understand and convey what is needed and not sound too silly. I'm sure I'm not always using proper Spanish. "Mí nescito habla Español, no Englais por favor." That got me started along my journey of Spanish speaking. I'd say I was okay after two weeks. Okay enough to get get around. I was not bad after a month. I was actually able to have a full conversation, without much thought, after about three months. Also, I'm not sure... Here's a puzzle for you people into psych stuff. During my immersion, I would sometimes dream in Spanish. Except, in my dreams, I was fluent. As in, I would prattle on and converse in Spanish - fluently. Except, at the time, I wasn't actually fluent. What language was I really speaking in my dream?
- irrational 9y ago
  I've never dreamt, so I'm not sure how dreams work, but maybe you were speaking English but your dream interpreted it as Spanish?
  - KGIII 9y ago
    I have no idea. It has puzzled me since then. In my dreams, I was having full conversations about a variety of topics. I probably spoke 1000 words at the time.
- schacon 9y ago
  That's interesting. I studied ASL for several years in college and got fairly competent at it (volunteered in an integrated elementary school, helped at some Deaf-Blind events, went clubbing with Deaf friends, etc) but have had very few occasions to use it in the last 15 years since graduating. In what situations do you find yourself using it?
  - KGIII 9y ago
    A good example would be when I'm out and about and see a deaf person trying to converse with others. I'll indicate that I learned a little sign language and translate for them. Another would be when I am out and about and I notice someone who is deaf. I'm not the least bit bashful, so I'll wave and get their attention to let them know that I can sign. This leads to a conversation, pretty much every time. It's not like they have a wide variety of people to converse with. So, they are usually quite happy to do so. I also used to work with municipalities and there were a number of occasions where a contact person would actually be deaf. Municipalities are generally more open to hiring people who have hearing issues. So, it has actually sped things up as opposed to their usually method of writing down what they want to say and then reading your lips. I am pretty outgoing, so it comes in handy. I haven't actually had anybody show outright displeasure, they always seem happy to find someone that signs. The closest would be a grumpy old man who was curt. He lived in the same neighborhood but would continue and we finally became friends and drinking buddies.
- jerf 9y ago

by akeck 9y ago

schacon 9y ago

Think about how much time you spend a day speaking even your own language in your daily life. Do you think it's 16 hours in a day? 400 hours of practice is a pretty good rule of thumb I think, but that's deliberate practice, not just physically being awake in a country that speaks the language. You need to be engaging in conversation and actively processing things for those 400 hours. Plus it has to be at a practical level. Watching TV in Japanese when you don't know any Japanese doesn't make you much better at the language - your brain isn't really processing anything. Or to make a music metaphor, you can't really just play with a violin for hundreds of hours and be good. You need a tutor, someone to challenge you at your level and help you make small steps so you slowly get better. Anders Ericsson has done some fascinating research on excellence and the important difference between doing something and deliberate practice at it. Also, don't mistake being in a country with language immersion. When I was in Paris and knew some French, I would maybe be able to do a few hours a day at best, if I was really trying to engage. Even in English in America, I probably only really talk or engage in conversation for a few hours a day on average. I was in Germany last year for a few weeks when I was around an A1 level and I barely progressed, because the immersion is very surface-level at that stage. You have encounters but it's not really practice - most interactions are too high-level and don't help you because you can't process them.

KGIII 9y ago

Absolutely... Academically, I've only failed two things. Typing and Spanish. Today, I'm fluent in Spanish - though a bit slower than natives. Why? I spent a whole lot of time with my pidgin Spanish below the border. Eventually, I just learned. I did make an effort to learn a few things every day, but I ended up actually learning more than that and doing so without even realizing it. I can't write Spanish, but I can read it. I can write it well enough so that I could probably pass for a mentally handicapped third grader. But, I can speak the language. Other than some basic phrases, it's the only other spoken language I'm even remotely fluent. (I also sign, ASL specifically, which has been surprisingly handy.) So, if someone really wants to learn a language, go visit the country where it is spoken and don't hang out with tourists. Learn a few phrases (ordering beer and where is the bathroom are good starters) and you'll pick up the rest. As near as I can tell, people are very happy to help. I'm not sure if there is some psychological thing to it, but people seem really helpful when you're making a legitimate effort to learn their language. By fluent, I mean able to understand and convey what is needed and not sound too silly. I'm sure I'm not always using proper Spanish. "Mí nescito habla Español, no Englais por favor." That got me started along my journey of Spanish speaking. I'd say I was okay after two weeks. Okay enough to get get around. I was not bad after a month. I was actually able to have a full conversation, without much thought, after about three months. Also, I'm not sure... Here's a puzzle for you people into psych stuff. During my immersion, I would sometimes dream in Spanish. Except, in my dreams, I was fluent. As in, I would prattle on and converse in Spanish - fluently. Except, at the time, I wasn't actually fluent. What language was I really speaking in my dream?

irrational 9y ago
I've never dreamt, so I'm not sure how dreams work, but maybe you were speaking English but your dream interpreted it as Spanish?
- KGIII 9y ago
  I have no idea. It has puzzled me since then. In my dreams, I was having full conversations about a variety of topics. I probably spoke 1000 words at the time.
schacon 9y ago
That's interesting. I studied ASL for several years in college and got fairly competent at it (volunteered in an integrated elementary school, helped at some Deaf-Blind events, went clubbing with Deaf friends, etc) but have had very few occasions to use it in the last 15 years since graduating. In what situations do you find yourself using it?
- KGIII 9y ago
  A good example would be when I'm out and about and see a deaf person trying to converse with others. I'll indicate that I learned a little sign language and translate for them. Another would be when I am out and about and I notice someone who is deaf. I'm not the least bit bashful, so I'll wave and get their attention to let them know that I can sign. This leads to a conversation, pretty much every time. It's not like they have a wide variety of people to converse with. So, they are usually quite happy to do so. I also used to work with municipalities and there were a number of occasions where a contact person would actually be deaf. Municipalities are generally more open to hiring people who have hearing issues. So, it has actually sped things up as opposed to their usually method of writing down what they want to say and then reading your lips. I am pretty outgoing, so it comes in handy. I haven't actually had anybody show outright displeasure, they always seem happy to find someone that signs. The closest would be a grumpy old man who was curt. He lived in the same neighborhood but would continue and we finally became friends and drinking buddies.
jerf 9y ago