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You are cherry picking. You did not reply to these parts of what I said: It has been documented that when a job becomes a predominantly female job, society ten
by Mz 9y ago
You are cherry picking. You did not reply to these parts of what I said:
It has been documented that when a job becomes a predominantly female job, society tends to pay less than when it was a male job.
The crux of the issue here is that no matter how you slice it and dice it, on average, women make less money than men.
We can debate all the live long day exactly why women tend to make less than men, but that is an established fact. Furthermore, when teaching was a male profession, it paid better than after it became a female profession. This is such an established phenomenon there is a term for it: The Pink Collar Ghetto.
Your original remark top which I was replying was this:
Why are you not asking why out of 100 janitors, or 100 trash collectors there are only 1 women?
I love how every time this subject somes up it is always how there is a lack of women in tech, never pluming, janitorial, auto mechanics, etc. Only Tech.
And I am telling you women already do similar work to janitors. It just has a different name and pays less. You are moving the goal posts. Your position seems to boil down to "No matter what you say, I am fine with women making less money than men and I will justify it to the end of time."
So, I regret trying to engage you. This does not seem to be a good faith argument and your remarks come awfully close to being personally insulting to me.
One of the reasons people talk a lot about the lack of women in tech is that it is a highly desirable job. You know that. You know that janitorial work and plumbing is not nearly as cushy, attractive or well paid as IT. You are de facto objecting to any concern expressed about "Why are the cushiest, best paid and most prestigious jobs held almost entirely by men?" and tossing in a lot of flak to distract from that question.
- syshum 9y ago>>And I am telling you women already do similar work to janitors. No you claimed Housekeeper is similar to Janitor, and I explained in great detail why a janitor will make more than a housekeeper and it has nothing to with the gender of the employee but the fact that it is different work with a different value proposition to the people hiring do to the work >So, I regret trying to engage you I understand, I would hate to be proven wrong as much as you have been in this exchange. >One of the reasons people talk a lot about the lack of women in tech is that it is a highly desirable job. You know that. You know that janitorial work and plumbing is not nearly as cushy, attractive or well paid as IT. I dont know that, nor is every job in IT "highly desirable" or "cushiest, best paid and most prestigious jobs". Rack and Stack Tech, Factory Floor Techs, various other hardware level jobs are not the "cushiest, best paid and most prestigious jobs" in fact they are viewed many times within IT as one step above janitor jobs. If you want to limited "IT Jobs" to Devs then maybe. I still do not believe sexism by employers are the driving factor behind why there are not more female programmers. Which is the crux of the argument, that employers pay women less. The reason there are not more female programmers likly starts with pressures around the 10-12 year old range, if you want to see more female programmers target pre and early teen development. >When teaching was a male profession, it paid better than after it became a female profession. And you attribute that to sexism. there could be no other cause? I have not done the research I might if I have some free time, but I find it highly suspect it would be only because there are more females, likely there was some other factor at play, if the statement is even true at all
- Mz 9y agoI don't have any problem with being proven wrong. You haven't proven anything I have said wrong. You are merely being contemptuous and not engaging in a good faith fashion.
- KirinDave 9y ago> I understand, I would hate to be proven wrong as much as you have been in this exchange. What a revealing sentiment. It speaks to your desire not to engage people here, or share insight or build consensus, but rather a desire to score debate points. What's more, your entire argument is about addressing tangential (and debatable) inconsistencies and not actually addressing the larger point. If you think observers are blind to this, you're dead wrong. If you really want to argue that there isn't a wage gap, scoffing and sniping won't work. The overton window, as they say, has shifted. The burden's on you now to provide an alternate hypothesis and shift the consensus. Consider what this website is for. Folks with math, science or computer education are going to demand a higher standard than sniping around the edges of an argument attempting to discourage the debate.
- syshum 9y agoI am not arguing there is no wage gap, I am stating a proven fact there is no wage gap. Outside extreme left authoritarian circles, which this site seems to be extremely slanted towards, that is an accepted fact, so I do not buy the overton window has shifted at all. You likely believe that because you live in a echo chamber probably on either the East or West coast. As to providing an "alternate hypothesis", to what? The claim is that employers pay their female workers for the same work less than their male workers. This claim has been proven to be incorrect and instead only exist if you take all female wages added together across all roles, and compare that to all male wages across all job roles which only shows that women generally enter into less paying professions. Liberal Authoritarians then make the illogical leap that is because of sexism and the "patriarchy" with out any evidence to support that claim. That there is some grand conspiracy to suppress wages in any occupation that is dominated by female labor, and to keep women out of male occupations. I have yet to find any creditable evidence for these claims To narrow the focus more to what we seem to normally come to "Why are there not very many female programmers", that is not a symptom of employment sexism, that demographic is not going after those jobs. Now we can debate the reason for this, often tracing it to High School or other teenage development factors, not to employment sexism. I am not denying sexism in general or even sexism in the workforce, I am denying it is a factor of pay for the same job.