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No, I would argue that it's different. CNN has a limited amount of time to fill and doesn't accept user submissions. HN has neither constraint, and gives users
by Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
No, I would argue that it's different. CNN has a limited amount of time to fill and doesn't accept user submissions. HN has neither constraint, and gives users voting rights over some of the success of each post.
- tptacek 9y agoSo, you've decided that one organization's private constraints are important and another's aren't.
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y agoI don't understand what you're asking. One organization (CNN) has these constraints, another (HN) does not.
- tptacek 9y agoAccording to you. Does it seem natural that private organizations should be responsive to your conclusions?
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y agoI think it's entirely valid for me to present my case and submit it for the consideration of the community and the moderators. I don't understand what you're getting at here, you're not making a very compelling argument for anything in particular.
- tptacek 9y agoI think my point is pretty clear. In arguing that CNN's decision not to air your opinions in prime time is legitimate while HN's decision to be selective about what they'll provide a venue for isn't, you've accepted unquestioningly CNN's constraints while dismissing HN's. In both cases, you're applying an enormous amount of subjectivity. But you'd prefer not to acknowledge that, and so have instead attempted to reframe the discussion as if your conclusions about CNN and HN are self-evidently objective. They are not.
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y agoHN and CNN are different mediums, use different designs, and have different limitations. As such I have different expectations of them. I'm starting to lose my patience with you. I think you are intentionally being obstuse and I don't appreciate it.
- arkades 9y agoFor what it’s worth: to the extent that you keep answering “but you refuse to apply your own logic to (any other medium, without reason as to why)”, I think a lot of people in this thread believe that -you’re- not debating in good faith. You can only handwave an argument away with “but different medium” so many times without explaining how a change in medium changes the relevant logic.
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y agoI really don't understand why it's so hard to understand why there's a difference between the mediums. I've made it pretty clear.
- tptacek 9y agoI think it's clear to everyone how the mediums are different. What's not clear is how subjective decisions CNN makes about what to air are acceptable, but subjective decisions HN makes about what to allow on the front page aren't. What's especially weird about this argument is that the US media market is in fact in the middle of a giant debate about how acceptable CNN and Fox News's editorial decisions are. It's not like it's a reach to get from moderation to CNN's editorial decisions; it's a pretty obvious comparison.
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y agoThank you, I understand where you're coming from now. Let me clarify. The difference is because CNN makes a subjective editorial decision about what to air. Their content is curated and prepared by paid staff. The success of CNN is entirely built on the talent and hard work of these people. There's a whole side discussion about the ethical responsibilities of CNN we can have, but let's set that aside and just distinguish them from HN. HN's success is built on its community. The overwhelming majority of submissions are user contributions - far less than 1 in 1000 HN posts are written by the mods, and they're generally meta posts. HN owes the success of its content to the community, and such I feel that they're morally obligated to treat that community with a certain level of respect. Part of that is everything I've argued for today - well-defined rules that are enforced equally and transparent moderation. I'm not invested in CNN. I haven't participated in the formation or success of their "community", if you could even call it that. But I, and many others, have participated in the success of Hacker News by submitting articles, Show HNs, etc - and participating in discussions on the site. HN would be nothing without the community that participates in it, and frankly I think YCombinator's core business itself would be measurably worse off without HN. Since the HN community is responsible for HN's success, I say we can call for transparent moderation.
- bg12321312we 9y agoCNN does not strive to promote an appearance of being open to anyone. "Hacker" "News" does.